Faith school cap ending - is it inclusive?

[mids2019]

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/may/01/england-scraps-50-rule-on-faith-school-admissions

Is this policy biased against atheists? Is it a policy that may deny access those from minority faiths access to decent schools? Interesting move in a more secular society.

Why the need for religious segregation in school?

This is something I've never seen a rational answer to, @DataColour, so it's hard not to wonder if religious leaders prefer to keep others well away in order to keep less palatable practices from the general public

As we've seen too often - and certainly not only with Catholics - abuse of all kinds thrives on secrecy

Reads that this is an attempt to get religions to provide schools so the government doesn't have to. Faith schools have not been opening because of the cap so in abolishing the cap they are encouraging the opening of school. Same for SEN schools there is a national crisis with lack of places and underfunded provision this passes some of the problems onto charity sector.

Surely the solution is for the government/LAs to properly fund and build adequate schools?!

Many posters here are so resentful of Church of England schools. I wonder if they would have said the same when the church set out to give every child in England the chance of an education in 1810, or opened the first higher education institutes opened to women in order to train teachers?

Or maybe they want to provide a faith-based education to those who want it rather than those who don’t.

No, they wouldn't, but this is 2024 and times have changed.

Have they really? There are nearly 9000 children with SEN without a school placement. Why is the CoE who are having to step in to fill this gap? And why the resentment that they are?

The CofE are perfectly happy to open schools that are open to all faiths and none, and they have opened many in recent years. It is not them who have been lobbying for the 50% cap to be lifted. It's the Catholic Church that has been doing the lobbying and refusing to open new schools until the law is changed.

The rational answer is that people of faith want to educate their children in schools where the values are consistent with their faith.

All schools educate to a set of values - they could be human rights values, they could be humanist values, Islamic or Christian values etc. They may even look similar - ‘kindness’ ‘respect’ ‘social justice’ but they will come from a different place. So for example the pp who berated me that ‘loving your neighbour’ wasn’t a Christian value, whilst you don’t need to be a Christian to ‘love your neighbour’, or to engage with the idea, the initial theological understanding of agape comes from an entirely Christian source. Jesus himself actually.

There isn’t (or shouldn’t) be any secrecy or ‘less palatable practises’ as they are all subject to Ofsted and to teach British values and must adhere to safeguarding at the highest level not to mention the Equality Act and all the other educational legal requirements.

And the reason they can is that, contrary to popular belief, we are not a secular country. The Lords Spiritual are part of democratic apparatus as is the Monarch, Head of the Church. Faith groups enjoy privileges in law. And we are a richer more beautifully diverse country for it.

It’s not perfect but not everyone subscribes to sterile atheism.

You and so many others are missing the point. The consultation is about admissions, not whether faith schools should exist or not. Assume they will always exist, then ask yourself whether they should choose 100% of their students by faith, or only 50%, with the other 50% open to all who want to attend. That is the question that is being asked. Anything else is just a distraction.

Just to say again, unless the government intends to alter the funding agreement for existing faith schools, this will only affect new faith schools.

The current policy only affects faith academies and free schools that were set up after the cap was introduced. Many CofE VC and VA schools reserve a proportion of their places for non-faith applicants. They are doing so voluntarily.

Some faith groups, notably the Roman Catholic church, will not set up new schools while this cap is in place.

So, whilst this is nominally about admissions, it is really about making it possible for those faith groups that cannot accept the cap to set up new schools.

I wasn’t ’missing the point’ I was directly answering the question posed about ‘religious segregation’.

Ultimately it doesn’t matter what I think about school admissions. It only matters what is reasonable for society as a whole, and ultimately what becomes law.

This debate (and arguably the consultation) is all part of deciding what is reasonable for the good of all. Oh, and faith groups own a fair chunk of the land and buildings, so that needs to be factored in too.

@prh47bridge "So, whilst this is nominally about admissions, it is really about making it possible for those faith groups that cannot accept the cap to set up new schools".

It is already possible for them to set up new Voluntary Aided schools without a 50% cap, so long as they fund 10% of the capital costs and have the support of the local authority.

It is also possible for them to set up free schools, fully funded by Government, with the 50% cap, but they have been holding back on doing so in order to put pressure on the Government to remove the cap. They claim it would be against Canon Law to open schools that "turn away" Catholics. This emotive language is a misrepresentation of the cap. The 50% open places do not "turn away" Catholics. Catholics are just as welcome to take up the open places as anyone else.

English Law should not be dictated by a misrepresentation of Canon Law.

@Screamingabdabz "Oh, and faith groups own a fair chunk of the land and buildings, so that needs to be factored in too."

No it doesn't need to be factored in, because the 50% cap only applies to new free schools, which are fully funded by Government, on Government-bought land.

The consultation does not apply to existing schools. (It doesn't even apply to voluntary aided schools that convert to academies, because they are allowed to keep their 100% faith admissions).

I agree that the RC church has either misunderstood the cap or is deliberately misrepresenting it. They seem to think that Catholics would be excluded from the 50% of places awarded without reference to faith.

Yes, they can set up VA schools. There is one approved in principle right now. However, if an LA wants to set up a new school there is a presumption that it will be a free school. Given the RC church's current stance, they will not bid to set up a school in this situation.

To be clear, I am not defending this proposed change. I don't have any strong opinion either way. My only real interest is in being clear that any change does not affect existing VA or VC schools and is unlikely to affect existing faith academies or free schools.

"Yes, they can set up VA schools. There is one approved in principle right now."

They opened a VA primary and secondary school in Twickenham in 2013 with the support of the Local Authority (who bought the site as well as contributing to the capital costs). The price for Local Authority support was 10 open places in the 1-form primary school (30%). The secondary school places are 100% faith-based (apart from the 10 that transition from the primary school).

They refused to open it as a free school/academy at the time because 50% of the places would then have been open to all.
However, the school has now converted to academy status (keeping its admissions policy), so the church are no longer liable for 10% of the ongoing capital costs.

The 50% open places do not "turn away" Catholics. Catholics are just as welcome to take up the open places as anyone else.

This is a disingenuous argument. If they are oversubscribed and cannot select on faith then they may well have to turn away Catholics.

What is perhaps more surprising is the lack of evangelism. Why would the Catholic Church NOT want the opportunity to teach hundreds of non-Catholic children Catholicism and Christianity over a period of several years?

I find it strange that people simultaneously argue
"Faith schools are wrong/dangerous/bad and it's not fair they exist"
And
"How dare they potentially prevent my child from going there"

I don't find that at all strange. It's an unfair system. Do you also find it strange that a lot of people think private schools should be banned but would like their children to have equal access to the kind of education and facilities that private schools provide?

@AllProperTeaIsTheft "This is a disingenuous argument. If they are oversubscribed and cannot select on faith then they may well have to turn away Catholics."

But they have to do this for their existing oversubscribed schools too, so it's not "against Canon Law".

"What is perhaps more surprising is the lack of evangelism. Why would the Catholic Church NOT want the opportunity to teach hundreds of non-Catholic children Catholicism and Christianity over a period of several years?"

Because they are more concerned that the presence of non-Catholics in significant numbers might dilute their evangelism.

But they have to do this for their existing oversubscribed schools too, so it's not "against Canon Law".

I haven’t read their canon law, and I suspect neither have you. But that is irrelevant. I was simply replying to your point that they wouldn’t have to turn away Catholics when they may have to.

Because they are more concerned that the presence of non-Catholics in significant numbers might dilute their evangelism.

That doesn’t make sense. You can only evangelise to non-Catholics, so it would be the opposite.

"What is perhaps more surprising is the lack of evangelism. Why would the Catholic Church NOT want the opportunity to teach hundreds of non-Catholic children Catholicism and Christianity over a period of several years?"

I was always under the impression that Catholicism in England was a bit of a closed club and not very evangelical at all. I taught at a Catholic school for a while and that certainly didn't disabuse me of that impression. What it did do was make me realise what a bad thing faith schools were, and the extent to which they were effectively using back-door selection.

"I haven’t read their canon law, and I suspect neither have you"

I have actually.

"You can only evangelise to non-Catholics"
Well, if you want to be pedantic about it, change the word evangelise to proselytize. But I think you knew what I meant. The Catholic Church uses their schools to educate Catholic children about their faith. Not all Catholic children go to church, and many of their parents don't go either. Catholic schools enable Catholic children to attend mass, learn about their faith, prepare for Holy Communion etc, within school.

This. All religions should be taught in all schools and all state schools should be open to all.

Since the 10% contribution to capital costs has been raised, it's interesting that figures obtained under the FoI Act appear to show that even these payments have been decreasing - and this at a time when the actual costs have risen

https://accordcoalition.org.uk/2013/12/27/faith-schools-in-england-now-almost-entirely-state-funded/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/faith-schools-funding-money-religion-voluntary-aided-accord-coalition-a9192296.html

That will be because many of the VA schools have converted to academies, which are fully Government-funded.

It's a way to indoctrinate children and young people - school should be a safe space