Faith school cap ending - is it inclusive?

[mids2019]

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/may/01/england-scraps-50-rule-on-faith-school-admissions

Is this policy biased against atheists? Is it a policy that may deny access those from minority faiths access to decent schools? Interesting move in a more secular society.

This - with the caveat that I'd apply it to any faith which wishes to run its own schools

Why is it offensive @CurlewKate - where exactly do I say that atheists definitely do not have those values? Why don’t you go look up support for staff in some RC schools and less turn around etc in both staffing and governance. It really is multi faceted. Like most things in life.

Interestingly, there are tons of Muslim children in England in church schools. Those parents are choosing church schools and their value system over other schools. Lots of these schools are about a certain type of value system and respect towards it.

Look I do not particularly like single sex schools for my DC, but am I crowing on MN about getting rid of all single sex schools? No way. I want others to choose what is best for their own DC and their families. What is Britains strength today is its diversity and choice and openness, despite all the hate in the press and negativity.

If the RC church want to open some new good schools, go ahead as far as I am concerned. Where I live a whole lot of parents got together and opened a successful new free school too, so what. It is hard work and requires funding but can be done with the right will.

“but these schools should get zero state funding”

Do you mean funding for pupils once the school has been built by the RC church?

So which schools exactly should get state funding? Bearing in mind that most working adults and parents have paid their taxes. Every child has a right to an education, under the human rights act.

So only those that certain posters agree with should get state funding for pupils? Who gets to decide the value system of which schools are worthy of the holy grail of state funding, for pupils?

Personally, I think every child should get the same amount of state funding, whether they go to a church school, grammar, independent, online school. I find it pretty outrageous that they do not. That is what most other countries do.

I love it when posters pop up and roll out the old 'lmutual respect, kindness and serve thy neighbour etc'

Oh yes religion - all those good people in their little controlling groups with all their rules and regulations. For starters I give you:

Catholic priests
Grooming gangs

Yes there are bad people everywhere but these are people whose modus operandi is the right way, full of goodness and love thy neighbour.

It's a problem in rural areas where just about every school is a faith one. That's not choice. Why should my child, child of two atheists, be lower down the admissions criteria for their local C of E school than a child with Sikh or Muslim parents? I've actually thought quite hard about my atheism; why is it a less valid belief than a different religion? I believe in many of the same core values but don't believe in a god. And why are 4 year olds, who have no faith beyond that which their parents have taught them, being allocated schools based on their parents' beliefs?

Well at least you could christen/baptise and attend church if you wanted to. I couldn’t change my DS’ biological sex to get into the outstanding local girls school, fully funded by the state all the way.

What values do you think children should be taught?

‘Loving your neighbour’ is a principal that exists in most cultural traditions in one way or another. It’s a beautiful and simple idea. It doesn't require a belief in God to engage with it. Ironically this is something that children instantly get. Frothing and ‘offended’ secularists could even learn from it too.

@Screamingabdabz "It’s a beautiful and simple idea. It doesn't require a belief in God to engage with it."

So not a Christian value. You make my point. Thank you.

You can't compare single sex schools with faith schools. Presumably there are equal numbers of boys only and girls only schools, so it's not like a girl is discriminated against because there's a proportionately higher amount of boys only schools. But my kids can't go to most of the schools round here as they are lowest on the priority list because of the single fact that they have no religion, and we contribute towards these schools through tax are much as those who are religious and have access to ALL the schools. How can this be right? How is it that religious discrimination is allowed in schools when all other types are not?

I have not read the full thread.

The 50% cap mentioned only applies to new academies (i.e. not schools that have converted to academy status) and free schools. It does not apply to any other school. It is imposed through the school's funding agreement. Unless the government intends to modify the funding agreements for existing schools, this change will only apply to new faith schools.

Looking at what is said, I suspect this is, at least in part, due to lobbying from the Roman Catholic church. They are opposed to the current cap and have refused to open any academies or free schools while it is in place. Indeed, a Catholic independent school in Crosby that does not currently select on faith at all was prevented from converting to an academy because of this cap.

@Araminta1003 " I couldn’t change my DS’ biological sex to get into the outstanding local girls school, fully funded by the state all the way."

I'm assuming there is also a boys' school?

There was no local boys school. That is the whole point. There were far more places for girls locally, in the comp and the grammar. Even the boys grammar was superselective with no catchment (and smaller PAN) whereas the girls grammar had a catchment and larger PAN.

Every locality can have its individual challenges. It does not mean we should then be anti single sex or anti RC religious schools.

And in my area, the RC umbrella primary academy trust seems to be doing very well and I know they have wanted an RC coed large comp for years so I am not going to say no to that. Have filled in the consultation on that basis.

Religion/Spirituality/good values - are all the same to me. I think our young need some values and spirituality so I welcome this. I am not particularly religious but I am spiritual. Not threatened by religion one bit. Churches in my area of London have had a massive revival. Food bank collections, dementia, scouting, lonely people, for the elderly, refuge even from people suffering with ill health and anxieties. All the services that the local authority seems unable to provide. The local priest is very welcoming and has a great dialogue with other faiths too. There really is nothing to object to and I personally respect the current Pope far more than most politicians in the Western World. So there is that.

What's your second paragraph got to do with faith in schools? Whilst it's great that churches are doing good things, they are still discriminating against non faith children in schools, can't take away from that.

Religious schools also create division in local areas by busing in religious children from out of area and forcing kids who live near to the school to have to travel a long way to a school that is non religious. What's the flipping point?!

Personally, I think every child should get the same amount of state funding, whether they go to a church school, grammar, independent, online school. I find it pretty outrageous that they do not. That is what most other countries do

I'm sorry but this most certainly isn't a universal thing for "other countries"
The ones most often mentioned who who insist on a secular state education are the US and France, and in those there's no state funding at all for private schools who choose to offer a different approach

As said so often I've no issue at all if folk wish to follow a religion privately, coach their children in it and so on. That's entirely a matter for them, but just don't expect others to pay for it or expect to foist it on others

Same with the RC schools here

This is exactly where I sit too.

Yes a faith school, paid for by the faith, for members of that faith is fine.

BUT a faith school paid for by tax payers that those tax payers can get no benefit from because of their faith isn't fair.

DD did a French exchange and her school partners with a French private school that most definitely received significant funding from the French state as the fees were like 1500 Euros in total per year and the school most definitely looked like a traditional UK private school. And whilst they followed the French national curriculum to remain “sous contrat” (and receive Government funding) a lot of the families were RC and there were lots of RC “clubs”. So if you think the French are not getting around this somehow, think again.
UK state education has been somewhat privatised and academies are “independent” and free to follow their own curriculum are they not? And yet they receive public funding.
Given that I fail to see how online schooling does not get public funding for example. I think they should register with the DFE and demand it as long as they follow the laws and are properly regulated. I think the private sector should get together and start making similar demands as well.

“Religious schools also create division in local areas by busing in religious children from out of area and forcing kids who live near to the school to have to travel a long way to a school that is non religious. What's the flipping point?!”

@DataColour - but that was the issue with single sex schools in our area. It is not the religious nature or single sex per se, it is the fact that nobody has planned properly to provide the right amount of school places for all. Why should there not be some RC big schools in cities, for example. I agree they should not distort a local area, but all schools can do that if they follow a particular ethos even. I have no desire, for example, to send my DC to schools with 12 hour days and strict behaviour policies. That is my choice, but if all my local schools will adopt that ethos then I am also stuffed and my choice is altered. Especially if I have an anxious child who can’t get on in a punitive environment.

My point is simply that Tony Blair started the free school and academies programme and many of these schools do things their way. It is discriminatory not to allow RC schools to set up as well. Especially because a) their quality is good on measurable levels and b) hardcore evidence is available as to ethnic and cultural diversity in them. So I do not see the problem. If councils are not planning around this properly what has it got to do with the RC churches themselves.

@Araminta1003 what state school imposes a 12hr day? is this even a thing at any school? I think this is a very unlikely scenario, therefore not a fair comparison.

Why SHOULD there be RC big schools in a city? Why the need for religious segregation in school?

Clearly discriminatory. Even more so than it is now.

@Araminta1003 I'm pretty sure that it's not allowed to have a whole school more places for one sex that the other in an LEA. Worth investigation.

@DataColour - 12 hour school day is a type of ethos found in some high achieving comps in London aimed at providing safe study spaces for more deprived communities after school hours so they can achieve to their full potential, stay off the streets, away from gangs and screens etc. especially where they are lacking in space at home due to overcrowding. Some people like it for their children and it works for some communities. It also can help with community FSM type meal provision and pupil premium clubs and all sorts.

The whole point of the academies programme was for schools to be able to offer a fit that suits their own local communities and pupils best. There is demand for new RC schools and they have not opened since 2010 - the initial cap was meant to stop a whole raft of new faith schools taking precedence over other types of schools when the programme was launched initially. It has now been 14 years and I think they should be allowed to do it, but of course, planning issues, bus route concerns etc are all relevant. However, those come further down the line. In my borough there is a specific demand for this type of school and so I do not see why others should stop it because it does not accord with their own particular “value” system. The schools overall achieve well and it will overall lead to better schooling for some children. I do not see the problem.