Struggling to pay for 6th form

[Charliesunnysky10]

DP & I both attended local state schools and had a tough time getting an education, so when our daughter wanted to go to an independent school for secondary (yrs 7-11), we made arrangements to set aside enough to fund the 5 years. My Dad wasn't too happy and said that the house was not to be mortgaged to pay fees (my mum sadly died 4 years earlier and left us enough to pay off the mortgage). However, there was regular overtime available at DP's work so we managed okay. We hadn't factored in the cost of living increase and I took a 2nd job for the evenings and weekends to ensure we could cover this last year (11).

However, daughter had said she would attend a state sixth form, but has in the last year become desperate to stay at the independent school (she wants to be a dentist and needs AAA which is regularly achieved at her current school's 6th form, but nowhere else locally). On the plus side, she got good mock results (8 x grade 9's and 3 x grade 8's) and when she had the post mock chat about sixth form with school they said they were very keen to keep her for A levels.

However, I'm honestly dead, working a 60 hour week, DP's overtime is sporadic and we can't meet the fees for another 2 years (I sold my car, and walk to both jobs). I've asked my dad again if we could remortgage but he is completely against this and says Mum mum didn't leave me the money for this. He said she has a better chance of getting into Uni going to a state school anyway. I just doubt she'd get the AAA - he says what will be will be.

I spoke with school and they said there is a bursary available and daughter's grades would stand her in good stead. However, reading the application form I'm asked why I can't liquidate assets and I think this is a weak reason. I wouldn't want to go against Mum's wishes but I do feel this is more Dad's take on the situation.

I really don't know what to do, and DP says it's not his parents or money so can't comment, but if it makes me feel any better, he says he's also torn between just applying for bursary and risk them thinking we are unreasonable, and remortgaging, but working like mad for another 2 years to pay it back ASAP.

What would you do?

My daughter left private school to go to a 6th form college - she wanted the independence and her best friend was going there. Her best friend dropped out of the first year of 6th form and my daughter didn't do as well in her A levels as she would have done by staying at school. She has even acknowledged to me since then that she should have stayed. There was a strong work ethic and high expectations, whereas the college was the complete opposite

I can't comment on the relative merits of your DD's school and the local state offering as I don't know the schools nor your DD and only you can judge how likely she is to hit at least 3 A grade A-levels at the state school and how well she would settle there. However, if a big part of your decision is to secure a dentistry place, you need to know that getting the grades is the easy part of a dentistry/medical school application. There are other much bigger unknowns like the UCAT clinical entrance exam which suits some DC very well but other very bright ones don't do well in it. If you do score highly in that and get to interview stage, the clock generally resets to zero and you are again competing against other candidates for a place, drawing on volunteering experience/work experience/part-time job experience etc. often in a stressful MMI (multiple mini interview) format. It is a very competitive process and good A-level results are only one element. Also, many DC don't get offered a place first time round and have to take a gap year and try again. I wouldn't be basing my decision on the assumption that it secures success in this field. On the other hand, from the summer at the end of Year twelve the pressure of it all ramps up significantly and it helps to be in an educational environment where your teachers know you and are supporting you.

Things to make you consider state school:

In addition, she's selected 4 fairly involved A Levels this is daft because Uni only use the best 3 (unless it’s further maths which is a bit nuanced). There is absolutely no advantage of doing 4 if the aim is to get the best grades for University.
If the school won’t consider her doing 3 then I think that’s a big problem. When it comes to the exams, it’s a luck of the draw whether exams are bumped together and clash, which means she could have 4-6 exams over a week.

You could cut down your hours if you are really stressed and then your contribution to maintenance won’t be so high. This may not be a problem for you and you may not want to pass the debt on to your daughter.

Things for the private school:

she gets to do lacrosse for another two years. It’s something she ‘knows’ and wants and possibly less of a chance she’ll be unhappy. Beware how parental pressure and expectations can affect girls in the private sector.

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Look at the government tables on high achievers and ask around at the departments of the schools that teach the subjects your Dd wants to do. A school can have particular strengths in departments.

My 2Dds got A stars and As all the way through a large state school. There was a group of about 30 that did. But this obviously depends on the school. The group of pupils that joined the 6th form from private schools did not achieve so well but maybe it was because the private school eased them out? I don’t know. Possibly a mixture of reasons.

Agree with @Tinysoxxx if she is sure she wants to do dentistry go for three A levels as the fourth won't even be considered so best to concentrate on securely meeting her grades in chosen three. Also, if she can do an EPQ alongside, do it in something relevant and it can be very useful for interview reflections.

I've filled in bursary applications and in all of them there was a clear understanding that "assets" didn't include the family home, or savings and pensions of a reasonable amount (in their opinion!)

I would respond to that question by saying that you have no assets to liquidate as your only asset is your family home.

As a PP mentioned, liquidating assets doesn't usually mean mortgaging your family home.
Why not speak to the Bursar to get an idea?

Your Father, whilst admirably protecting is wife’s wishes, probably isn’t a rounded opinion to take anymore sadly, for a variety of reasons. I imagine his teaching years are well behind him and state education is now a different ball game. If you cannot find a local VI form which matches or comes close then I suggest taking out the lowest rated loan that you can. I would also apply for the bursary and state that you already sold your car in order to support her financially. However, I am interested how Uni is going to be covered financially? Would you need a loan for that too, or worse, would you struggle to repay the loan you take for her VI Form tuition because Uni support overstretched you?

This is a horrible way to think, however, when you inherit from your Fathers estate, you would use that money with less restriction.

With A-Levels the students hit the ground running: navigating a new school, new people, new teachers and not having her lacrosse as much of an outlet will be very hard for her indeed.

Do people genuinely think that kids who go to state schools don't get good A level results?

@Howdidtheydothat

I think you’re overestimating the contribution parents are urged by government to give to their children for Uni.

It is vastly less than a years private tuition at a private school. About 5k max, see below.

https://www.savethestudent.org/money/asking-parents-for-money-university.html

Yes some decide to pay for accommodation, fees, a car, whatever else in totality. That’s within their remit to do if they wish, but it is in excess of what is required.

Beyond 4th year the fees are covered and there is an NHS bursary too.

https://www.bristol.ac.uk/students/support/finances/med-dent-vet/medicine-dentistry/

So costs relative to the university years should have no bearing on OP’s decision.

She needs to make sure that her daughter gets the grades to get into dentistry.

I understand. My son left his independent 11-16 school at 16 and went to college. He really regretted it and dropped out. In independent school they are mollycoddled to quite a degree particularly if they board. I think on the bursary form they will understand that you don’t want to go into long term debt. You don’t need to give too much detail, apply for the bursary anyway. Would you actually get a mortgage if you are struggling so much? Most take school fees into consideration when looking at affordability. Also it depends on the school. They don’t want you to still be paying when she leaves school, but if you have good payment history with them you might be able to pay the last 2 years fees over 3 or 4 years.

@CurlewKate

They can do, but where there is competition for the best universities factors such as extracurricular activities and work come into it, particularly where the unis have similar sporting teams to the private schools and want the best.

A personal statement is how they differentiate between candidates where academics are the same.

For two people wanting to get into vet, both have AAA.

State school kid has a standard part time job and teen hobbies such as football club.

Private school kid has had relevant unpaid work experience facilitated for them, spent Easter lambing and the summer volunteering saving green turtles. They’ve played competitively in the school rugby/lacrosse/hockey etc team, and in chess, they speak Spanish fluently etc.

Do you see the difference?

State school kids do relevant work experience for university applications too - it’s not the preserve of fee paying students.

I’d mortgage the house and not tell your dad. It’s none of his business. He doesn’t get to dictate how you live your life, you’re an adult. His opinions on schooling aren’t right or wrong.
I went to independent school, and moved at sixth form to another independent school. It was disastrous for my exam results.

@SabrinaThwaite yes but it is less easily accessed.

Very often the private school kids will not have to do a standard job at all and will be able to devote all of their free time to relevant unpaid (or paid for) ventures. And there are better connections for them to access these too.

Again, doing specific types of sport and playing competitively does give advantage and these and more established teams that can get into competitions are more often found in the private/grammar sector.

Surely you are not serious with this post?

I know enough about university admissions that Spanish, sports and ‘saving turtles’ would really not be relevant for a vet school. The state school applicants for vet school that I knew had worked in horse yards, worked on their parents’ farms etc.

If you think it’s “more easily accessed” by the privately educated then that’s the perfect argument for favouring state school applicants, isn’t it?

FWIW, both my DC’s friends and neighbours children, all state educated, have managed to sort themselves out with suitable work experience for med / vet med applications - volunteering in care homes, volunteering with local animal charities, working at stables or kennels, helping local farmers etc.

Absolutely see the difference and it’s why I’d hire the state school individual over the private school. One who has actual experience of life.

@Tinysoxxx

Being a bit flippant as I know a few who used it to get into biovet course - spent the summer in tropical climbs paid for by Mum and Dad!

Regards the sport I know a lot of people who were accepted to Russell due to their prowess in competitive sport because the Uni wanted people for their teams.

And relative to the people working in horse yard or parents farms, all well and good.

I am talking about the standard state school student whose parents earn the average wage, do not own a farm and cannot afford horse riding lessons.

@Isitovernow123 I would agree with you but if the daughter is attaining and is happy with her current set up it seems mad to move her.

@SabrinaThwaite

You’re still not getting it. A lot of state school kids actually have to work and get a job that pays. They can’t devote the same time and don’t have the same support.

This is inaccurate for Medicine/Vet Med/Dentistry. Med schools are not interested in swanky work experience or the extent of your extracurriculars . Most also ignore the personal statement. The interviews are generally all about answering their specific questions drawing on the candidate's reflections from different experiences. It carries just as much, if not more weight, if this is from a part-time paid job in McDonalds (actually very relevant with huge time pressure, team working and, if front of house, customer interface) than from a consultant shadowing work experience. In fact, if you have the latter, best to also have quite a bit of something like McDonalds or similar roll your sleeves up stuff to dispel any silver spoon notions. Sports can be useful to demonstrate team work but there are plenty of other ways to show this. They are not bothered what level you play at and are more concerned about you just having some other interests to help you switch off from a demanding job that can take its emotional toll.

I do get it - very clearly thank you.

My DC went to state schools. My neighbours’ DC went to state schools. They all managed to work jobs (demonstrating useful skills) and get relevant experience for uni applications - quite a few went on to do medicine or vet med or other competitive courses. All average kids that didn’t have networks to rely on, they just sorted things out for themselves.

Sorry but your working 60 hours a week your husbands done overtime & your mortgage is paid off but you cant afford your childs last years of schools, can't qualify for a loan that isn't a mortgage & obviously don't have credit cards ?

I'd say your fathers onto something here & perhaps he heard it from your mother.

Where does all the money go & why are banks refusing to loan to you & your husband ?

I think it really depends on what government and what private schools are available in your area. Though going back in time maybe you could have moved to a catchment area with good government schools. Lacrosse playing does not seem like a strong reason to me. Though having stuck with it for 4 years it would be ideal to allow her to stay til the end. I hope she is aware of the burden on you and she will be eager to repay you.

I don’t understand why people feel that parents need to bankroll their children through university? Particularly if this will be financially challenging for the parents?

Both my husband and I worked through university (intensive 6 year course) paid our own way and did not get funded by our parents.

I agree in principle that DC should have part time jobs but It is very difficult to work after year 2 of a Medicine degree due to workload and placements taking place over holidays. We need to look at the economics of today, not years ago. Student loans are eroding in real terms and for the DC who don't get full maintenance loans, their loans are insufficient to cover the costs of accommodation and living expenses. There is no loan for year 5 for Medicine and the bursary is insufficient to cover all living costs too. It's not about spoiling DC, just parents being realistic about the degree of financial support required before their DC get into it.