Slave to the fees

[Uhu]

On Monday, I bumped into a male colleague who wanted to know how the babies were doing. I asked him how his seven year old son was getting on and then he off-loaded on me the perils of private school fees and how much it was costing him and his wife. He said if I could get them into a good state school to do so because finding the fees every year was such a hassle.

In the first place, I had not contemplated sending my twin DSs to private school so I think his point was nugatory. Nevertheless, I did wonder why he bothered and he said it was because he did not think much of the state schools in his area. Fair enough but I'm sure that there are some good state primary schools if he bothered to look. Ultimately, I did not feel sorry for him.

Yesterday, I saw another male colleague and he started telling me about problems he was having with a bullying boss and that he would like to leave the organisation. However, he is well paid, over 50 years old and does not feel he would find a job that would pay him what he earns now. He has a daughter (age 13) at private school and he said that was the main reason that stopped him from leaving. He needs to the pay the fees and at the moment feels trapped. I actually felt sorry for him because he is a humble guy and reading between the lines, he and his wife had to wait a long time before their daughter was conceived so obviously, they want to give her the best of everything. He also said that his wife wished that she had spent more time with their daughter when she was younger instead of working full time. Despite the private education, it is not a happy household and I sense there is resentment on the daughter's part. I felt sorry for him because he is a decent and humble guy.

It made me think that most parents do want the best for their children but there are some things that money cannot buy. Like spending time with them when they need it. Is it worth sending your children to private school if you have to struggle to find the fees? Children are not stupid and I'm sure they pick up on the anxiety so how does that make them feel? I firmly believe that if a child has ability and supportive parents, it will succeed at any type of school. Is being a slave to the fees ultimately worth it and what is the emotional cost to the family?

I agree with you uhu, dh wants our two to got to private schools, he was sent to boarding school. He was packed pff with his mum telling him she would be back in a minute and didn't see her until the holidays.

I think we could just as well spend the money on other things to enhance our childrens lives, like family time!

My sentiments too!

Uhu, you make a valid and serious point. I went to two state schools and two private schools. I would choose a state school for my kids every time not just because of the cost savings but because IME the mix of pupils at state schools is just more 'real' and a far better preparation for the life ahead. If I had been able to stay at state school I can't help feeling I would have been better prepared for life afterwards as my parent certainly provided no input in this respect.

I still feel angry and bitter that they thought they were 'buying' me a future by sending me to a girl's private very academic school; for them academic achievement was everything and the only way to make your way in the world regardless of personal happiness, confidence and social experience.

I am determined not to take this narrow-minded view with my own kids. They will not go to private school, the money will be spent on broadening their horizons and learning about the world e.g. travel, first stop Peru in a few years time! I am only speaking from personal experience - I know that plenty of kids thrive in private schools, but it absolutely was not right for me.

Good for you hunny! There's so much a child can learn by being in the real world with parents that really care about them as people in their own right..

I beg to disagree Uhu!

2 of mine won Assisted Places to private school- DD to Y7 & DS2 to Y3. Both of them had left a primary school we were very unhappy with & for DD it was pay or go to a high school, despite having passed the 11+.

We knew our DD & we knew that if she went to a school that did not stimulate her, she would be on the back row mucking about, bunking off & smoking behind the bike sheds. I'm not saying this would be the same for every kid (DS1 went to High school & did incredibly well) but knowing how she was, we could see this coming.

For DS2 it meant he got to take & pass the 11+ & got to Grammar school. Left at his old primary he would not have had the opportunity.

We struggled, not so much with the fees but with the travel costs, & ended up having to remortgage once they'd finished.

BUT the benefits they got from the school far outweighed the hassle & I would do it again. My DD changed overnight from a child who threw a tantrum every morning & had to be dragged into school kicking and screaming, who refused to wear a skirt, wanted to be a boy & was sullen and awkward, into a proper little girl, with bags of confidence & nice manners, who couldn't wait to get to school in the morning & begged to board! The transformation was almost unbelievable.

I have never believed the argument that a child will succeed wherever. It wasn't true for me & it wasn't true for my DD nor 2 of my DSs. My grammar school turned into a comp & we were left to sink or swim. I sank & I'm angry my parents did nothing about it.

The main thrust of my original message was about the emotional distress some people put themselves under to privately educate their children and whether it was worth the sacrifice. Of course some people think it is worth it and that is purely their choice. I was simply asking the question.

You are obviously very bitter about what happened to you but I would ask, how much of it was down to you? If your school changed from a grammer to a comp, surely the high standards (if it did have high standards) did not just drop overnight? If you did not flourish when your school changed its status, would you have flourished if it hadn't? You blame your parents and the school but what about you?

I went to a school that changed from a grammer to a comp and many of the pupils were not motivated? I was and despite poor teaching in some subjects and lack of moral support from some teachers, I made up my mind to work hard. I passed all my exams and went on to do a degree and PhD in Chemistry. It would have been easy to sit back and blame the school and the teachers. I didn't. I knew what I wanted and went after it.

I would also add, private education does not guarantee success. My boss is privately educating both his daughters. The oldest took her GCSEs last year and "failed" (grades D or less) half of them. They are a middle class family, parents are educated themselves and very supportive. What happened? He admits that she is not academically inclined and despite the small classes, individual attention, she did not flourish as much as they would have wished.

Uhu, I think you're being a little harsh. Some kids are bright but at 13 do not have the wherewithall and foresight to motivate themselves sufficiently if they are in a less than supportive environment. Some parents (like Tallulah) may feel they have a responsibility to ensure that their child doesn't miss out on future opportunities as a result of behaving like a typical 13 year old.

As for your colleague's DD, some people just aren't academically minded and all the help in the world won't change that.

I accept what you are saying but I do think that sometimes people can be too quick to blame everybody but themselves for not doing as well as they think they could have done.

Personally think it does deend on the local satte schools. If I only had a chose of bad/poor schools then I would try to avoid anything to sending Dd there. Indeed, where we live now in the apartment there is no way I would send Dd to the local school and we do haev her name down for private schools. However, we have now decided to move. We have paid more money and have a smaller home just to be in the right catchment.

Have to disagree that good kids will do well anywhere. I teach at a failing school. I know that good kids do lose out. The teacher has to deal with the kids messing about and the good ones don't get the teaching and learning they deserve as a result. that is not because the teachers are poor or don't care - it is just the way it is. If I have a class of 30 kids minimum in 50 minutes, I get a maximum of 1.5 minute with each child (less really). If I have a handful who are diisruptive, that time will go down for the other kids. I have to concentrate on the poor behaved ones - or the whole lesson disintergrates.

Depends on your own feelisn guess. Having worked at both a very good school (top of league, beacon school) and a failing school (in secial measures for so many reasons, including behaviour of pupils) I now know that I would do anything within my powers to not let my child go to a poor, or below average, school. If that meant working every hour or even home edding, I would seriously contemplate it.

My opinions only I know, but I do feel very strongly about this. Could go on and on for hours about why poor schools fail their best pupils most....

I also think that nowadays many private schools do have a mix of cultures, religions, creeds and types of children. Mainly because of the current situation with schools and education. there are kids from lower income backgrounds who are struggling along just to pay for fees.

Fair points. I'm just going by my experience and I'm glad my parents did not try to send themselves to an early grave by worrying about finding school fees for me because it would have been a complete waste as far as I'm concerned. I was self motivated and did well, as did my husband. However, everybody is different and some need more support than others. How that support is provided is another question.

I thought that disruptive pupils were not allowed to disrupt classes anymore with warnings and exclusion orders in place? Shows how much I know! Would also like to add that private schools also have their fair share of disruptive pupils, underage pregnancies etc.

IME, the girls at private schools who get pregnant don't drop ot and keep the babies though.

Similarly the drug thing tends to be "cleaner", nobody goes shop-lifting topay for their weed.

Shoplifting is not exclusive to state educated pupils! As for the pregnancy comment, you should use the caveat "perhaps some girls" and that can equally be applied to state educated girls too.

Hang on Uhu, I wasn't suggesting that shoplifting was exclusive to state-school pupils. I can think of several wealthy kids who did it for kicks. As for the teenage pregnancy thing there was a caveat, I wrote "IME" and I stand by it. Girls at private schools are more likely to have abortions. Several girls got pregnant, no-one kept the baby. Government stats on teenage pregnancy and abortion back that observation. All I was trying to express in my post is the view that "problems" tend to be better camoflagued when they occur in private schools.

Obviously not everyone who goes to state school is a a drop-out in the making, but not everyone who goes to private school is a useless waste of space incapable of motivating themselves!

well, we're slave to the fees, and frankly don't think we have much choice. Agree totally with Hula's comments about bright children not being able to do well just anywhere. It is very hard financially for us to send dd to private school but it's worth it, and I wish I didn't always have to defend our decision! . I never thought I would need to send her to an independent school but our local state schools are no good. Dd is top of her class and happy so we're happy. We are now considering sending her to a private girls school (another option I used to be against) in year 3 because by then, it will be a perfect fit for her. So a lot more slaving to do in the meantime. It doesn't mean we are not a happy family and can't give her a lot of attention and do stuff together, but yes, it's a sacrifice.

Uhu, you start a thread asking a question, then get all snotty & defensive because you don't like the answers you get! You seem to be trying to prove the point that private education isn't worth the money/stress, but it's been done before on mumsnet & there are a lot of people who don't share your views. We ended up £30k in debt because the travel money was borrowed on credit cards so we had interest on interest. Yes we were worried sick and yes it caused tons of stress. But it was still worth it.

The standards at my school did drop overnight. They crammed 5 schools (boys & girls grammar & 3 secondary moderns) into the buildings of 2 & didn't stream. All the rough kids we'd escaped from were suddenly our classmates. Like my DD I'm swayed by the opinions of others & when I got bullied & picked on for being a swot I stopped trying so hard (so they'd leave me alone). I wasn't strong enough to say stuff them & work hard like you did. I had friends who did, and weren't too badly affected, but other friends had the same experience I did. (I was at school with Liz Earle & she's written plenty about how it affected her). Also I don't know how old you are but in my day only the very top (2-3 per year group) went to university, so that was out of the question. (the next 30 or so went to poly & the rest of us out to work).

I was an LSA in a failing school so I know what they are about.

No-one ever said that private schools guarantee success. They just give some children a better opportunity to do so.

Uhu: "I thought that disruptive pupils were not allowed to disrupt classes anymore with warnings and exclusion orders in place?"

If only! Sadly this is not the case in many many school, and especially in failing schools. My main example, one I always use so apoligies to those who have read before, is:

At current school, before it went into serious weaknesses but on the slippery slope, a Y9 (13yo) threw a chair at me when I asked him to continue working and to talk more quietly. He refused firstly and was rude. I asked him to wait outside the room - so I could deal with his behaviour without the audience he had to play up to. At this point he picked his chair up and threw it at me. It hit my tummy - I was 7 months pg. He also went on to smask the window in my door.

His punishment - 2 days excluded from school. He was back in class, laughing and joking about it, the following lesson.

And this is not uncommon I'm afraid.

I occasionally think of what we could do if our kids were not in private schools. More holidays, designer clothers, latest cars, perfect hairstyle every 6 weeks, house in executive estate...

I think education is a good use of disposable income. Us, we are just putting it on our mortgage, ho hum...(no stress at all).

Re: Hulababy's experience: indeed. I teach at a 'good' comp & last year had 2 year 11s threaten to 'smash my face in' because I told one there would be sanctions (ha BLOODY ha) if he refused to stay for detention.

Both boys walked out of class, shouting obscenities in my face & shoving a desk into my stomach as they went (I was 7 months pregnant).

The Head's response? He suggested they went on 'early study leave'. Both refused. Both back in my class next day.

I flatly refused to teach them - Head tried to persuade me they were 'good lads really'. Colleague agreed to take them into HIS group - they subsequently truanted his lessons & used to turn up to mine, yelling abuse when I insisted they should leave my teaching room!

Anyway.

So no, sanctions in state schools are not always applied effectively Uhu!

We are loving private education for our children. They are utterly flourishing, they are beautifully mannered and fun to be around. They rock.

The only thing that paying the fees has made us do is work harder. We are both amazed at how productive we can be with such a wonderful motivator. I have a beautiful photo of my two in their rugby kit next to my desk - they ooze happiness and I am very glad to push myself in my working day (way beyond the realms of 'normal') to be able to support this very important aspect of their lives.

I think it very sad that anyone may cast aspertions on my family - like I don't have time for them - just because I value their happiness and education so highly. I am very confident in our choices and I look back at the eight years that I worked from home so that I could look after them as smalls as a privelidge.

Nightmare Carrie This school I am at now is such a shock to me. My first school was top of the league, beacon school but most importantly the SMT were very effective. The kids didn't bother stepping out of line as they knew the score. It school was really heavily oversubscribed, so the school played on that with the idea that the kids played by their rules, or they went elsewhere - and the head was prepared to carry out the sanction if kids did step over the line. Makes such a massive difference.

Definitely, effective SMT makes all the difference, & I think that holds true in both the state & private sectors.

Our Head just isn't the sharpest pencil in the box & honestly thought that if he said 'oh come Carrie, you're an excellent teacher, not like some we have here heh heh! Sure they didn't mean to upset you!' - I'd just say, well, that's OK then.

Incidentally I'm a strapping 6' ex pub landlady & NOT easily physically intimidated - but these 2 seriously frightened me! Grrr.

Still have to be really stuck for a decent school before ds went private, tho'. It just gets all my 'Old Labour' hackles up at the very thought!

I don't know where this comes in the face of things but let me give an example of state versus private schools...

At the age of 16 my older sister was given the opportunity to study at the local grammar school for her A-levels...am opportunity many would relish....she spent 3 years studying at high expense to my parents and still got no A-levels out of it because she wasn't interested in learning...

My younger sister went to a prep school from 8 years of age and had all the opportunities for sport/ encouragement from parents 9even to the point where I was in the wrong for allowing her to attend an audition when she was about to take her 11+ because she had exams to consider...she was 10...why wasn't I told not to do it for it was my future too surely...suffice to say she did well got A-levels but not that higher grades and went on to university...

then look at my older sister...no private schooling whatsoever..she even sat and cried like me when doing the 11+ because she found it so hard (why because she hadn't had the groundwork beforehand). She passed all her A-levels at virtually the same grades as the above sister, went on to run her own business and in my honest opinion is very hard working and very intelligent..

I am somewhere here, I did the comprehensive like my sister above, I got my A-levels, degree and although I do not have a high prestigous job (for the last 10 years have been at home for 5 and then dh ahs moved us around every 2 years with his job) I am still so highly ambitious...to the point that I would consider a second degree and all the agro that arises with it...I had little encouragement and was made to feel less important because I was not sent to a private school when my 2 sisters were (my childen would be treated the same btw)

other sister has a degree and went to comprehensive, hasn't a good job as she has children and thye take up her time...

what I am trying to say is that it does instill a certain level of confidence from an early age if you are made to feel you are worthy of this effort...however make no mistake motivation is the key to ambition and drive and where you are not given apportunity at an early age and feel unimportant as a result, events arising later on a life can drive you too....it is partly personality...some people are academic others are as much...I was but was not pushed but it doesn't hold me back because my ambition lives on..it's like a heart beat...

Gosh, musn't get me started - good comprehensive education here. Self motivated and parental involvement, as no one pushed you - but the richness of being brought up with a wide peer group is so important. But also for the children from not so privileged backgrounds who were just a bright as me. To hear me talk about going to university as if it was obvious that what was kids like us did - surely that it is incredibly important.

If all the parents who spent so much time and money in getting there children educated in private education put that energy into supporting state education. Fund raising, board of governors, not accepting a second class education etc... then standards would be raised.
Lets not kid ourselves private education is just about educational standards its about privilege and buying a step on the ladder. It is part of the class system which is topped by the royal family and perpetuated by the public school system. Our society is becoming more fractured than ever before and every time we make the decision to get out the chequebook we just add to the problem.

THIS IS NOT a rant against any parent who has made that decision as I so far have not been put in that place. But surely we should be supporting the state system both for our kids but all the other kids whose parents don't even have chequebooks.

As you can see I am a bit of a republican idealist at heart. But then idealism is about perfection and you have to have something to strive for.

Kaz33,

Absolutely private education is about privilege and buying a step on the ladder....and quite frankly I am going to do that for my 2 children

and I haven't got the energy for the futile mission of saving the world