Slave to the fees

[Uhu]

On Monday, I bumped into a male colleague who wanted to know how the babies were doing. I asked him how his seven year old son was getting on and then he off-loaded on me the perils of private school fees and how much it was costing him and his wife. He said if I could get them into a good state school to do so because finding the fees every year was such a hassle.

In the first place, I had not contemplated sending my twin DSs to private school so I think his point was nugatory. Nevertheless, I did wonder why he bothered and he said it was because he did not think much of the state schools in his area. Fair enough but I'm sure that there are some good state primary schools if he bothered to look. Ultimately, I did not feel sorry for him.

Yesterday, I saw another male colleague and he started telling me about problems he was having with a bullying boss and that he would like to leave the organisation. However, he is well paid, over 50 years old and does not feel he would find a job that would pay him what he earns now. He has a daughter (age 13) at private school and he said that was the main reason that stopped him from leaving. He needs to the pay the fees and at the moment feels trapped. I actually felt sorry for him because he is a humble guy and reading between the lines, he and his wife had to wait a long time before their daughter was conceived so obviously, they want to give her the best of everything. He also said that his wife wished that she had spent more time with their daughter when she was younger instead of working full time. Despite the private education, it is not a happy household and I sense there is resentment on the daughter's part. I felt sorry for him because he is a decent and humble guy.

It made me think that most parents do want the best for their children but there are some things that money cannot buy. Like spending time with them when they need it. Is it worth sending your children to private school if you have to struggle to find the fees? Children are not stupid and I'm sure they pick up on the anxiety so how does that make them feel? I firmly believe that if a child has ability and supportive parents, it will succeed at any type of school. Is being a slave to the fees ultimately worth it and what is the emotional cost to the family?

WARNING! It's a long one Spanner in the works and hopefully some insight into this debate. Not sure that it will help much but to pay or not to pay is a complex issue. In my experience (and I've had some believe me) many state primary schools do perform well and you can tutor your children (do the tutoring your self I mean as it is only primary school level math, english and science and the books are available in WH Smith and my ma did this and well.. it certainly worked for us and then money was available for other home taught perks like piano lessons, ballet, dance and so on and as a lone parent this worked well for my ma) Children can then go on and do well in entrance exams for grammar or fee paying schools at the secondary stage which is where private education if it's needed or prefered is most beneficial. Uha, in part I hear what you are saying because I hear the endless moaning of someone who had a child in a primary fee paying school - oh its so expensive it means we can't continue to pay at the secondary level. Oh woe is us, woe is us Idiots - they should have done what everyone else does and use the state sector (that's one way of putting it, not nice I know) to get child/ children to secodnary level and then through savings, investing and smart planning have the money available to pay fees from there onward. Its not that bloody hard and so in part I do have no time for people who pay fees but whine and whine about it like we are supposed to feel sorry for them. I just don't get that attitude as it is your choice for goodness sake. Huff and puff over. Personnaly I will return to work in Feb. (and I am looking for a 3 day nanny share by the way ) but I have already discussed this with partner dd will have childminder (hopefully nanny) and at 2/3 years I have one of a number of very good fee paying pre schools in mind (only three days a week mind) thereafter one of a number of very good performing state primary schools in mind and then if private secondary is needed we are prepared and its our choice and we won't moan about it and dd gets maximum benefit and the same applies for any other children we may have. I think you have to make use of what is really available - and the school alone does not make the child some children really don't make use of the £1000s parents spend on their education and others do and likewise some children excel and succeed at state secondary and yes some others really don't. In part I think it's parental discipline with the latter, I went to a state school and got what I needed out of it because my ma was very strict with us. Perhaps she could have been easier with us but it did us no harm at all, and you never know a little more of that attitude from parents and maybe some state schools wouldn't be the scary (special measures)places some of them have indeed become? Warning this one rule does not fit all

Once upon a time some local authorities had funds available that allowed parents to send child / children to fee paying schools providing of course the children were gifted and more than able enough and the education they would receive there could not be met elsewhere in the state sector. My mother, now passed away, worked like a trojan to set up audition panel, interview boards and the like so that my brother and sister could audition along with many others to make use of the money. My ma, bro, sis and myself all put in tremendous effort and the end result was attendance and education for my sister at £5000 per term boarding school specialising in academic studies and arts. My brother attending the same school but the day version in London and later transferred to the boarding school. It was my sister's wish to go to this school - she had gained entrance previously but as was the case with me my mother could not afford the fees even with the school's assistance at the time. The LA funds covered a very significant part of the fees. My mother was always reluctant to let my sister go away to school but she knew it was what she wanted and that it was a enormous opportunity not to be passed upon. In addition there are 12 years difference between my sister and I and my mother often spoke to me about her concerns about state schools, e.g. disruptive classes, poor peer group influence etc. I had (for want of better words) put up with this at my state school, and my mother had seen this and I still went on to university and have a well paid job blah blah blah. My ma died before bro and sis finished school, she was a lone parent and I became legal guardian to my bro and sis. As I was on a good salary and working full time I was required to pay a fair proportion of some the £5000 per term fees x two children. At the age of 16 LA funding ceased for my sister and I was required to pay full fees if she was to continue A level education. I knew I could not afford this, friends of mine said for goodness sake we all went to state schools and FE colleges and it didn't bloody well kill us so if that's the case for your bro and sis so be it - don't feel guilty. Believe me I thought about it a lot and then I approached charitable trusts and secured a significant proportion of the money for my sister to continue. My mother had always had the concern that being around children in a state school would allow bad influences to rub off on my bro and sis? 7 years down the line it is the complete opposite - my brother and sister never stop telling me that I have never done anything for them ever?! None of my friends can believe their attitude. For a good while things were difficult with them as teens, I won't tell you my sister's reaction to my first and only child so far. Yes the opportunities provided by these schools were fabulous but things happen at fee paying schools just as they do at state. Every other kids parents were going through horrendous divorces due to spouses having affairs and the like. This had its fair share of effect on the pupils who were resentful, disruptive, moody and so on. The kids were (and probably still are) experimenting with drugs and drinking loads and I mean loads!!! Plenty of them smoke - cigarrettes and the other!! There was even a case where the school accepted a pupil who had been expelled from a number of other well known fee paying schools and he was later removed from the school for having images grossly unsuitable on his laptop computer and they were not of naked women or even animals - I leave the rest to you to deduce. Some of the girls slept around and I really mean slept around sometimes with vbees (village boys) as they called them some with window cleaners and oh anyone paasing? and oh it was endless- plenty left school with none or failed exams and a fair number went on to do nothing much really. Others did exceptionally well and could not be faulted in anyway. What has to be understood is that private education can only be valued for the opportunities it might provide - anyone who thinks children will be surrounded by like minded workaholics think again please. Children are children no matter where they are educated, drugs and alcohol are drugs and alcohol no matter how much the school fees - Prince Harry and Eton is a prime example that springs to mind - and believe me it is not him alone!! and families have problems regardless of their income. Did you ever see a family not suffer divorce because they were loaded or because their children went to private school and had excellent opportunities?- of course not! The bottom line is the willingness of the child and support of the parents - even if you have not a penny it's still something to support your child, help with homework everynight no matter how tired you are from a days hard slog - sit and watch every dance, karate, music lesson, and every play, recital, tournament and competition - money doesn't buy that, dedication does and money doesn't always buy graditude for that dedication - just wait until they turn into teenage mutants

In the town where we live, it is most uncool for the middle classes to send their children to the local school. It doesn't display to the world any kind of parental involvement in their education to just go with the flow like that. The sign of a caring parent is to send the child to a school that gives rise to the most horrific travel arrangements. The ultimate in caring parenting is to send each child to a different school, so that any pickup is associated with mad dashes and rotas. And then they whinge about how hard their life is because it is dictated by complex school arrangements (Christmas is brill for these parents, because they get to whinge about the multiple Nativity plays they have to go to). And do get me started on after-school clubs - ballet, swimming, piano, scouting - these offer endless possibilities for the caring parent.

Parents have a choice (aka preference) about where to send their children to school. If you can afford private school fees, you simply have more choices.

Parents who send their children to private schools are simply doing what they feel is best for their children, in the same way as other parents to pass the little primary school at the end of their street to send them to one on the other side of town.

There's a lot more to private education than simply being alongside rich and priviledged brats. A lot more. And you get all sorts of families. Sure, you don't see the bottom echelons of the socio-economic ladder - but you get everyone else. Some families find it easy to afford fees, others (like us) find it very hard. Our children do not have an exotic lifestyle with all the latest clothes and gadgets, which they may have had if they were not privately educated.

I'm not going to apologise for hubby working hard at school and university and therefore getting into a career position where his salary gives the option of private education for our children. And since we are doing nothing illegal with this honestly earned money, I don't think we should have to justify to anyone how we spend it. I would never dream of doing that to anyone else.

A couple of other points...

For families with just one or two children, the pain of going to a private school isn't very significant when the family is used to paying a nanny salary during the pre-school years (just trying to work in a WOHM vs SAHM argument here, LOL).

In our situation, my DS could not get into the secondary school 2 minutes' walk from our house because it was heavily oversubscribed, and we only found out we were moving long after the closing date for applications. The alternative school that the county offered was one I used to teach at, and it's not surprising that there were plenty of spaces available. Thankfully (and I am very thankful), we had another option.

We didn't plan to get into private education, but I'm very glad it was "forced" onto us.

heymissy, I really liked your last two sentencs about the willingness of the child and the support of the parents. You speak from personal experience of private education. I have none, so can't really put forward an informed view, but to me your rant rings very true.

Uhu, can I just echo the comment made by the other teachers on this thread and can I ask how much experience you have of education in secondary state schools now.

I am the product of a comprehensive school, a crap one. Like you I was motivated to work very hard and did well for myself, Oxford, dphil and research. However for every sucess there are lots and lots of poor outcomes. I was damn lucky to have very supportive parents and that helped me. Parental help is always the greatest factor.

But to say that bright kids will do well is to miss the point, they will have a bloody awful time of it, because of the poor behavior that is present in so many schools today. I teach in a better than average school but we have reguar incidents like those posted by others. One of the best this term was the child who threatened to throw acid over another. She was sent on day trips for a week and is back in the same class. How would you fancy your bright child working with her?

Lessons are constantaly disruped and vast amounts of teacher time are wasted dealing with the more disfunctional children. I have one who, when sent out of the classroom for persistant disruption, simply refuses to move.

I have read lots of posts from nice, well meaning, people on Mumsnet who's last experience of the the state school sector was in the 1970's. trust me, it has changed since then, a lot! My school was crap but behaviour wise it would be a shining beacon in some areas.

eek hmb, every time I read messages like yours about C**p state secondary schools I get very nervous thinking of next year when my son moves up. Things really have changed from the'70s, it seems.

To put a reality check on things most of the kids that I teach are great. But things realy have changed and not always for the better.

An example, when I was in school teachers would set work, we would get on with it and they would mark books in the lesson. Now, I don't think that was a good thing but it showed that kids would get on with work if you told them to do it. Even with my very best sets (and these are great kids) they will now all do the work unless you are constantly monitoring them. I marked the work of a boy yesterday and none of the work that I had set had been finised. I have now moved him to sit under my nose!

I think that the kids that I teach deserve my time in the lesson but I would rather be guiding than goading them into work.

To a degree good kids do succeed, no matter where you put them, but they do it by learning to hide their ability and that sucks. And state provision for the lower attainment kids can often be dreadful.

Part of the proeblm that we have is that kids are so emotionally fucked up by age 11 that they cannot succeed unless we try to address their emotional needs. And secondary schools are just not set up for this sort of thing.

Mumsnet posters are great people. they have a buring desire for their kids to have the best that they can, to be loved and happy and to do their best. The problem will never (or almost never) be with these sort of kids, but those who have never stood a chance in life because of their disfunctional parents. And schools today cant get these kids to behave and so they miss out on the only chance that they will ever get of a different life to their parents

hmb

I was very lucky as an LSA not to win the class from hell, like my colleague did. They were Y8, & she had them every lesson for a whole year. She got used to the overhead missiles every lesson, but the day that stuck in her mind was the one in which one little darling jumped out of the window mid lesson (unfortunately on the ground floor!) then came back, got in the supply cupboard with 2 or 3 friends & they rocked it until it crashed to the ground. Where was the teacher? At the front of the room, ignoring them !

I had the Y11 class from hell & the French teacher used to sit me in the middle of them to "keep the peace" (um, hello, I'm there to support a child with learning difficulties). I did manage to remove "my" child after that to the comparative sanity of the library for 1 to 1 tuition. Chemistry was the worst lesson as they rampaged about smashing equipment... one lesson we lost 12 thermometers and 5 beakers in the space of 10 minutes... and this was a school desperately short of funds.

Our English teacher was so bad that he spent most of the lesson ranting at them that they should feel privileged to have an education unlike poor Africans.. (WFT?!). As you can imagine, that went down well with the hard nuts. We did so little actual English work that I ended up putting together a revision pack for "my" pupil and his 3 friends, and basically tutoring them as best I could to get through the GCSEs... I'm not a teacher, I was just a concerned LSA with kids of my own (& a history degree). The D my lad got was in spite of the teacher (he was predicted E-F so I was really proud of him).

(we were so pleased when the English teacher got promoted to a different school)

How is a child who wants to learn supposed to get on in that atmosphere?

This isn't a pop at teachers by the way- we did have some who were truly excellent and caring despite the difficulties in the school. It is just to illustrate to people with no experience of the state of some of our schools, especially when they believe that by sending our "nice" children there & "getting involved" we could make a difference.

A lot of ranting going on here. I have no current experience of state schools now as my boys are just babies. Initial question I posed was asking if the stress of paying private school fees was worth the effort, particularly for those who could not afford it comfortably. I wasn't asking people to justify their choice.

Personally, getting into debt to pay for school fees is not something I would ever do. I'm fortunate that if DH and I wanted to send the twins to private school, we could do so comfortably. However, we won't because we do not see anything to be gained by it.

I would also like to add that I think some of you teachers would whinge about the kids, no matter what kind of school you teach in. One of the boys godfathers is married to a primary school teacher who teaches in a good state school and everytime we see her, she just drones on and on about the workload,children, parents etc.

Speaking as a "slave to school fees" - you have a really good point UHU! It is a great pressure on my DH and ultimately must affect family life in some way. If i could go back i possibly wouldnt put DS's into private education. We are now too far down the line to change - they are happy, doing well, settled, have loads of friends, acedemically doing really well and genuinly love school. - prehaps this would have been the case wherever they went but the decision for us lied in the fact that DS1 had Aspergers tendencies and was genuinly frightened of large groups of people and it has taken him 4 years to get used to his class of 14 kids. He now seems like a totally normal little boy and they are no longer concerned about his behaviour and he definately is not Aspergers.

Goodness, UHU,what a very unpleasent person you are. You ae so smug at doing well yourself you seem determined to put anyone down who doesn't seem to meet your exacting standards. When you know a little more about the state of secondary school you might have a little better informed opinion. One MN poster was hit in the stomach while pregnant by a child in school. Doubtless you will think that she is just moaning too, shame on you.

Message withdrawn

Dd1's school has just featured in a newspaper report and this is just an ordinary state school, the only one in the area, which takes all comers. I wish we could bottle whatever it is they have and give it to other schools to enable every child to succeed.

Btw, two of the teachers mentioned are younger than my ds1!

Message withdrawn

Suedonem, I agree. I'd also like to have some of the cash that they have. Forget getting an interactive white board, I'd settle for the kids having text books My upper sixth have no textbooks at all. I have resorted to buying books out of my own cash and photocopying bits for them. The rest of the school shares one book between two in lessons and no-one gets a text book to use at home. 2004 and kids don't even have books!

Well said Kaz33.

Well, that's the thing, Hmb - they don't have enough books at dd's school either and have to do with photo copies. Dh and I have just paid out a small fortune in books for dd1's final year at school. In fact children in this area have the lowest funding of any in Scotland. Bits of money arrive from the Scottish Executive but it's ring-fenced and the school isn't able to use it for what they want. So, for eg, the school has just taken delivery of four flat screen TV's and Sky TV(!) when the real need is for books or modern computers. But it looks good in the govt reports to say that 'our schools all have the latest IT and media equipment' never mind that it's housed in an overcrowded school with collapsed and leaking buildings.

bloss, the point is that Uhu's kids aren't even at school yet, so she is talking about something she knows nothing about!!

Personally Uhu I didn't plan on getting into debt, but then I didn't plan on my dd being refused a place at a suitable school. How do you know your twins will get into a decent school? You don't. There is a good primary school at the bottom of my road that I can see from my house but they refused my kids a place. Things have changed bigtime since we were all at school.

I would be embarrassed to pontificate on a subject I had absolutely no experience of, especially to people who have been through it. What you said about teachers was unbelieveable, so you are obviously trying to deliberately wind people up. Wouldn't you whinge if someone hit you in your stomach at 7 months pg?

Just out of interest, what are fees like at private schools? I've no idea - anyone give me ballpark figures for primary or secondary?

Sending ds's to state primary (but v. lucky to have an excellent one) and I always assume I couldn't afford private anyway but actually I've no idea what it costs!

I depends what school they go to. The big name fees can be very, very large indeed. Where my two go they are about £1500 a term. And for that we pre and post school care and a cooked lunch. It is less than some prevate nursery places in the area. The school is not posh, and most of the cars that go there are the olf Ford catagory rather than the flash BMW IYSWIM.

Sue, I would love a white board, it would help to improve the standard of the lessons that my kids get no end. But we can cope without them. In fact my kids have a laugh about it when I use yet another Blue Peter style, here is one I made earlier model, for the eye, ot the kidney or whatever. But the books thing just drives me crazy. I means that the kids have to spend time copying info that they can use for revision when I would rather them be doing things that help them to learn and understand the stuff.

ha ha - fees! It does depend on the school - local schools here vary from about 2000 a term to over 7000 a term - i.e. 21k a year! Without extras like uniform, instrumental lessons, trips (of which there are many!). I really don't think it's worth it unless you can comfortably afford it - there are other important things kids need, like holidays, time with parents who aren't killing themselves working all hours to pay the fees.

that's secondary btw.

Oh so I wouldn't be out of place in my Ford Mondeo then!?

So if you've got 2 there you are forking out £3K a term - excuse my ignorance because my kids aren't in school yet, is a term about 11 weeks? So that £3K is coming out of 2 pay packets iyswim?

Just trying to see if I could afford it - just for interest! It might come to it at secondary level but we are 8 yrs off the first one getting there anyway!

Seven thousand pounds a term!!??? Get lost! I won't be paying that unless I'm seriously desperate!!

Please, please, please my boys pass the 11+ - think I'll start tutoring now (ds1 is 3!!)

think fairly dependant on area but here (sussex)
about £1800-£3000 per term to yr6
£3500-4000 yr 6-8
£4000-5500 yr 8 plus
roughly
non-boarding