Slave to the fees

[Uhu]

On Monday, I bumped into a male colleague who wanted to know how the babies were doing. I asked him how his seven year old son was getting on and then he off-loaded on me the perils of private school fees and how much it was costing him and his wife. He said if I could get them into a good state school to do so because finding the fees every year was such a hassle.

In the first place, I had not contemplated sending my twin DSs to private school so I think his point was nugatory. Nevertheless, I did wonder why he bothered and he said it was because he did not think much of the state schools in his area. Fair enough but I'm sure that there are some good state primary schools if he bothered to look. Ultimately, I did not feel sorry for him.

Yesterday, I saw another male colleague and he started telling me about problems he was having with a bullying boss and that he would like to leave the organisation. However, he is well paid, over 50 years old and does not feel he would find a job that would pay him what he earns now. He has a daughter (age 13) at private school and he said that was the main reason that stopped him from leaving. He needs to the pay the fees and at the moment feels trapped. I actually felt sorry for him because he is a humble guy and reading between the lines, he and his wife had to wait a long time before their daughter was conceived so obviously, they want to give her the best of everything. He also said that his wife wished that she had spent more time with their daughter when she was younger instead of working full time. Despite the private education, it is not a happy household and I sense there is resentment on the daughter's part. I felt sorry for him because he is a decent and humble guy.

It made me think that most parents do want the best for their children but there are some things that money cannot buy. Like spending time with them when they need it. Is it worth sending your children to private school if you have to struggle to find the fees? Children are not stupid and I'm sure they pick up on the anxiety so how does that make them feel? I firmly believe that if a child has ability and supportive parents, it will succeed at any type of school. Is being a slave to the fees ultimately worth it and what is the emotional cost to the family?

My posting just then might have seemed a bit out of sync and different arguement. Just meant to compare the idea of a family living frugally and being financial strained due to a personal chose the've made because they believe it is best for their child(ren) and their circumstances. To me, they are all similar in that sense and TBH I don't see how people can actually judge one another without being exactly in those circumstances themselves. Yes, we may disagree and think "well, I wouldn't do that", but then you are you, and probably have a different outlook and different life priotises. Neither is right or wrong, both are just doing what's best for their own situations and beliefs.

I'd say usually house prices are high in an area for more reasons than the school, so that usually if you move and pay more for a house, you getting other things for your money apart from the school.

I don't think you are 'buying an education' if you move area in the same way you are if you pay a school. You are usually buying a nicer area and nicer house that all the family benefit from, not just the child that is going to school.

You may have examples to the contrary but that would be the case where I live. We are moving in Jan and will indeed be then in the catchment area for a fantastic state primary school - so paying a whacking great mortgage enables to us to send ds's there BUT we also get a nicer location, a MUCH bigger house with more bedrooms and an enormous garden.

Oh, and before I get lynched - we are moving for the extra bedroom and space now we have 3 dss and it's my parents house so it's a family property we want to keep that way. Being in the catchment for the school is a bonus

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We are moving to a new house and the location was chosen because of the good state primary school. DD also has her name down for a local Prep school, but will go to the state school now we are in the right area. It is also a good area, but there is definitely a premium for the school - the houses only a few streets away (but still in the "trendy" area), where the school is a different one and not so good at all, the house prices drop a great deal.

It's difficult to tell actually because what comes first - the school is great so house prices are high or house prices are high so a certain type of person buys them and therefore the results at the school tend to be better? Do you see what I mean?

The head at the school where ds will go said that while obviously the facilities and teaching are good, the success of the school is also partly a reflection of the catchment area in that it's quite affluent so the parents tend to be better educated themselves and therefore the children tend to be brighter to start with, are already at high attainment before they get to school and get huge amounts of parental support while they are there.

Before everyone shouts at me - I know you don't have to be affluent to be bright or to support your children but generally you can see what he's saying.

In fact, it's not dislike private education where success there will also be partly a reflection of the families represented.

Hulababy - I don't disagree with you though that a school can be factored into house prices. It's just that it's a bit harder to pick it out round here because it's a fairly expensive place to live anyway for lots of other reasons and actually all the schools are pretty good.

Mummy2steven, investment in property or investment in child's education - which gives the best return?

For the record, when I said that some of you teachers would whinge no matter what (or words to that effect), I was speaking generally, not to anyone specifically on mumsnet. I also do not condone violent behaviour or language of any kind.

As for the personal attacks on me, well, I really couldn't care less about the name calling because it is a sign of immaturity. I will say this though. If the teachers who posted unpleasant comments about me speak to their pupils in this way when they have a disagreement, no wonder you have problems.

As for the comment that just because I do not have children at school, I do not know what I am talking about, well, I disagree. Many people have not used the NHS but know someone who has but they will still comment on it. Most of us did not experience the Holocaust but reading the accounts of survivors means that we are able to offer our viewpoint. How else could teachers bring subjects like history to life? One of my sister in laws is a teacher, I have friends who are teachers, my nieces and nephews attend school so vicariously, I have an understanding of what is going on in the education system.

Finally, there are problems in the state school and no doubt the private school system has its fair share (they are just not publicised). However, I believe that the vast majority of schools are meeting and in a lot of cases, exceeding the expectations of their communities and we do not hear enough about this. Reading some of the post on here, you get the impression that the state school system has completely broken down and is in permanent turmoil with children coming out in their droves without learning anything at all. That is not true reflection and it is a disservice to everyone (pupils and teachers) who are making it work. Of course there are problem schools but they probably reflect the wider social environment. On the whole, most schools strive to do their best and I believe wholeheartedly that children with parents who actively support them will do well according to their abilities anywhere. If that wasn't the case, then all those able children from poorer families who were not able to attend the better state schools or go to high achieving fee paying schools (because not all fee paying schools are achieving highly) would stand no chance whatsoever. The recent achievement of my niece in passing her GCSEs with high grades (below average state school according to the league tables which demonstrates that they should be viewed with an open mind), whose parents were highly participative in her education reinforces that belief.

But I would think that someone who was in the holocaust would have a damn sight more insight than someone who's sister in law was.

Unless you are a teacher, or have direct experience through your child you don't know as much about teaching in secondary todat than I do, because I work there!

I know a bit about the NHS, I've watched casuelty, but that wouldn't make me an expert.

The trouble with teaching is that because people were once in school they think they know all about it. They don't.

Hang on a minute Uhu - teachers!!!! How many teachers here have had a personal dig. I haven't for one.

And please don't resirt to having a go. You still try the oldest line in the book - if you speak in a certain way to pupils, then hey, you deserve it....really??? I am afraid on MN most of us teachers have heard that garbage before - and it is garbage and does nothing to help support those teachers stuck in bad situations in classrooms, through no fault of their own and despite their best interests. Guilt making trips like that really are worse in many ways than direct attacks on individuals.

Oh, and I participate activly in the educatation of about 200 children in the state sector each week. How much do you do?

Exactly hmb! Can't be doing with another thread going down the drain to teacher bashing.

Uhu - you say you know many people in teaching. If so, then you should know that there are serious weaknesses in the current education sysytem, and that good schools are currenty highly saught after because there are so many not so good schools. In the authority I teach in (which is not huge) there is currently one school in Special Measures (one I am in) and another 3 on their way. Other schools have been in SM already and are coming out the other side.

And it isn't because these schools have bad teachers. Infact from my experience I would say it is oftent he case that these schools in failing areas often have teachers who work much harder than average and dedicate more time than average to their schools. Certainly I now work much much harder for my school than I had to when I was working in a top of the league type school.

And as HMB says, I also know enough about education to know what it's like. I only teach at school 2 days a week, yet I still try my best to help in the education of about 150 pupils, not counting the ones I may help out in my lunchtime, breaks and after school. I am not complaining here either - just commenting that I feel that I do have a valid reason for talking about education in a given way.

And Uhu, you said

'I think some of you teachers would whinge about the kids, no matter what kind of school you teach in' Some of you teachers, not some teachers, and that means the teachers who post here.

That is like saying some of you mothers don't know what they are talking about.

Jollymum - very well put, very often private education has hidden issues like these which have to be brought to the fore. We experienced some of your points.

And on a really hypocritical and two faced note: hmb and hulababy what general areas are your local private schools in that provide this wrap around care and very inclusive fees? That's news to me

I am in Sheffield - and found this to be the case at Brantwood and Ashdell. Sheffield High wasn't as fully inclusive, but was a good deal cheaper.

I suddenly feel an immense amount of solidarity with my fellow teachers!

Sorry Uhu, but there's no shortage of unteachable classes in any mainstream school. Think of the subject you most hated & were most crap at at school (in my case, games) - & imagine being forced to do it from 8.30 - 3.30 EVERY day.

That's the position some kids are in at school. Do they sit in neat rows & keep their gobs shut? Do they *. What they do is disrupt lessons, because being a pain in the ase is more fun than maths or whatever. They're crap at maths. They're GREAT at being disruptive!

Get 6 kids like that in a teaching group & you're b*ggered.

I don't think I'm a whinger. I love teaching, & I think the school where I work does a pretty good job. I do object to being verbally & physically assaulted in the workplace - would you put up with it where you work?

It's very naive to suggest that some children aren't failed badly by the system - usually the 'nice but dims' who have to sit in a classroom with the disruptive nasty pieces of work!

The school my ds and dd go to provide a creche (supervised play time for the older kids) from 8.00 till school starts at 8.50. This is free. For the little ones there is a creche from 3.30 until 6.00 which you do have to pay for, but the fees are very reasonable. He tends to go for about 15 minutes most days and longer if I have an after school meeting. It means that he gets to lay with his mates from school amd only has one pick up and drop off. For the older kids (Y3 +) there is free supervised play and homework club until 6.00. This can be a godsend, as it means that I don't have to pick up dd from a child minder and then get her to do her homework, one we are home, she is free to play.

there can be awful private schools, no doubt, we are just lucky that the one mine goes to is great. One pick up, one drop off, the kids love it!

Oh and I'm in the East midlands too!

If you really believe that there are no such things as unteachable clases, have a peep at a few threadsof mine. Please note that the Y9 class is the same Y9 class the whole way through, so it's not that I am whinging on and on about loads of different aspects of my job - just the same thing 3 times.

Thread 1

Thread 2

Thread 3

oh, and last year's thread where it was all getting too much:

Thread 4

I am sure there are others.

CarrieG, you just described my worst class of the day to a tee! The sadest thing of all is that I can walk away from it, it pisses me off, but it is 2 hours and 20 minutes of my life and I get paid. The heartbreaking thing is that there are kids in that class who want to work and don't get the chance.

Today was good though, I ruled them with a rod of iron, and my number one pain was out and with the SMT as soon as she started to kick off. It phappened so fast she didn't even get the chance to kick up her usual fuss! Marvelous! And the rest of the class learned something! Even better!

I have my Y9 class tomorrow - and I dread it every time, despite now having the LEA Advisor in the class with my, him doing a lot of the teaching currently - as he is looking for ways to improve Y9's behaviour across the school. He already knows I am eternally grateful for him being there, and by him being there I know also know that they are like this for everyone, not just me. I am not a bad teacher! have a new room and new strategies for tomorrow to try.

Uhu, the points you make are SO generalised, I really don't think they would stand up to any close inspection. It's all very well to say "I know plenty of teachers and I know aobut lots of schools and they're mostly fine", and another thing entirely to actually consider the reality of your own precious children going to a less-than-wonderful school. Sure, not all schools are appalling, but equally, the really fantastic state school are few and far between.

Equally, you keep making this point about able children with involved parents doing well wherever they are. Well, I'm sorry, but that just is not the case. If you have an able child who is also highly motivated, and has support at home, then yes, that child will do well, as my DH did (several state schools, physics undergrad at Imperial, postgrad at Oxford). But I was also a bright child, but quite lazy. My mum is a teacher, so I had plenty of support at home. However, I know for a FACT that I would not have done nearly as well at a state school as i did at my private school, a point illustrated quite nicely by the fact that some of my year group left my school to go to the local sixth form college; these girls left with 10 A's at GCSE level, and every single one of them got 2 E's at A level.
I got 4 A's, went on to Cambridge. My brother, who had the exact same schooling as I did, and who is extremely bright, didn't do well at school at all, as he just is not interested in academic things at all. He left with no A levels and is now an electrician, and very happy too. Which proves your point that private schooling doesn't guarantee a fantastic academic success, but I'm afraid that your assertion that good raw material will succeed in any environment simply doesn't stand up if you look at reality.

Hulababy & hmb comments really worry me.

I suppose I'm old fashioned but I remember being at school and all the teacher had to do was slap his/her ruler on the desk and you knew they meant business! Course there was more discipline then - but it worked.

Looking at Bad Lads Army and That'll Teach Em where modern young people were put in 50's type environments had a big affect on them. They all ultimately loved those enviroments where they knew where they stood. Some of the kids didn't want to go back to '00's school and some of the 'bad lads' actually signed up to join the army! There MUST be a lesson there surely!

We have kids who will refuse to leave a lesson. 'Coz they know their rights! Then what do you do? A mate of mine's friend got the rest of the class and moved them to another room! Good idea, but it still wrecked the lesson.

And As I have said mine as a good school. There are several schools in the area that I would refuse to work in. But I'm whinging again . All my acid thrower needs is to have a nice, well behaved middle class child to sit next to and then it will all be OK. Any takers?

I found the secondary modern thing bery interesting. The kids loved the chance to be kids. Not proto thugs and slappers.