Slave to the fees

[Uhu]

On Monday, I bumped into a male colleague who wanted to know how the babies were doing. I asked him how his seven year old son was getting on and then he off-loaded on me the perils of private school fees and how much it was costing him and his wife. He said if I could get them into a good state school to do so because finding the fees every year was such a hassle.

In the first place, I had not contemplated sending my twin DSs to private school so I think his point was nugatory. Nevertheless, I did wonder why he bothered and he said it was because he did not think much of the state schools in his area. Fair enough but I'm sure that there are some good state primary schools if he bothered to look. Ultimately, I did not feel sorry for him.

Yesterday, I saw another male colleague and he started telling me about problems he was having with a bullying boss and that he would like to leave the organisation. However, he is well paid, over 50 years old and does not feel he would find a job that would pay him what he earns now. He has a daughter (age 13) at private school and he said that was the main reason that stopped him from leaving. He needs to the pay the fees and at the moment feels trapped. I actually felt sorry for him because he is a humble guy and reading between the lines, he and his wife had to wait a long time before their daughter was conceived so obviously, they want to give her the best of everything. He also said that his wife wished that she had spent more time with their daughter when she was younger instead of working full time. Despite the private education, it is not a happy household and I sense there is resentment on the daughter's part. I felt sorry for him because he is a decent and humble guy.

It made me think that most parents do want the best for their children but there are some things that money cannot buy. Like spending time with them when they need it. Is it worth sending your children to private school if you have to struggle to find the fees? Children are not stupid and I'm sure they pick up on the anxiety so how does that make them feel? I firmly believe that if a child has ability and supportive parents, it will succeed at any type of school. Is being a slave to the fees ultimately worth it and what is the emotional cost to the family?

HMB I wouldn't take it personally with the whole business of whinging, don't we all whinge about our jobs, our co- workers etc. I am a SAHM but I still whinge alot!! In fact I would probably be very bored if I didn't whinge to my best mate at least once a day. You do a fab job as a teacher, I take my hat off to anyone with the dedication to do such a job with the youf of today, whinge away, you're entitled to and if you can't do it here then where can you??

you teachers can be read both ways, hmb, I think. I can totally see why you'd think it refers to teachers like you who are in this thread, but it could IMO also mean teachers genearlly in a wider real life context. Never nice to complain that teachers whinge for no reason, or indeed that members of any profession whinge for no reason, especially if you are not a member of that profession and have little experience of what that profession faces.

Please don't let it spoil your day!

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't give a tinkers cuss what she said, because tbh she is taking out of her arse anyway. I know that all people whinge to a degree, but she has already said she doesn't know anything about the current state of secondary schools.

Hate to disagree but she was habing a specific go at the teachers posting here. Some of you teachers would whinge whatever school you were working in. Try re-reading it as 'some of you mothers would whinge no matter how good your child was' not so nice is it?

But she hasn't a clue what she is taking about. I know this.

Gosh, missed the latest "Teacher bashing" statement. Thought MN had got over that. Fortunately it does seem to be a one off. But not nice or very fair at all Uhu. Yes, we whinge sometimes but then so do most people at some point about their jobs or aspects of it, or even just about what happened in the shops, with their own child, their partner, life... Uncalled for and certainly not an image of the type of teachers I have come across in my career to date. But what do I know

Mind you, that Y9 class; gosh, they are hard work........

God, I have Y9 first thing tomorrow . That is the class with the would be acid thrower and the child who refuses to leave a class when asked. Deep joy is mine.

BTW my brother, a teacher of some 30 years had to physicaly carry a child out of a clasroom last week and was punched as a result. What a whinger, eh?

I don't know how you restrain yourself hmb!!

A year 9 would be acid thrower - ah! but hmb - he's only a child - probably had a bad upbringing - can't you bring yourself to forgive!

I think I'd better stay away for today that Bulger thread has got me wound up!

A year 9 would be acid thrower - ah! but hmb - he's only a child - probably had a bad upbringing - can't you bring yourself to forgive!

I think I'd better stay away for today that Bulger thread has got me wound up!

She later denied that she had said it, but went on to say that she only threatened to hit the other child. that's OK then

Point-I can understand uhu's point that she knows she is lucky enough to be able to choose and that she was worried that how many hours were spent on working to pay for private school teaching when they might be better spent on home time. I can understand all the teachers' points of view that SOME state schools are basically holding cells for would be criminals and the kids who want to learn haven't got a hope in hell. I can also see that some state schools are wonderful and maybe this is down to a "better" area, for want of a word, "better" more constructive parenting and teachers that would give their life blood to a school and deserve a medal.
BUT, I can speak from both sides. DS1(14.5) goes to private school funded by my ex-h) and the three others to state school. Believe me,if you can play the "private" system, you can wheedle/buy your kids into that school, and that is not taking away anything from those kids that work damn hard to get in on scholarships and genuinely pass the entrance exams, pushed on by wonderful parents who believe in the school. I must admit to a worry about hot-housing kids, tutotoring from little to pass that "great exam" that might change their lives. Kids get so much pressure these days about school, maybe let them be kids for a while? My DS1 school is failing him miserably, because he's a lazy bugger basically, who lovs the social aspect of friends with swimming pools. motorbikes, taxi rides home FFS when mummy and daddy can't be arsed/too pissed to pick them up etc etc.. BUT when asked how my son's GSCE results which will be crap if he doesn't pull his finger out) would affect the school's holy grail of results tables, WELL, GUESS WHAT?!!!Get him extra tuition, was the reply. We also have to buy text books and believe me, I swear to God, they change the rugby kit every week. That's another thing. Wouldn't you expect in a "nice" school that nothing gets nicked? Bollocks, we have to keep forking out for new stuff because all the rich, lazy little mummy's boy .....watsits just nick other people's stuff when they forget theirs. We can't afford to keep replacing it and the attitude is, oh well..... I have heard, through a dictaphone tape, how one teacher spent 45 minutes shouting at his class,sending each boy out in turn and all the kids laughing at him. My theory is that sometimes, and not generally, but sometimes, the more well off these kids are, the less respect they have because they think the world runs for them! The State schools my other kids go to have a greater mixture of abilties and to be fair, if you're middle of the road or up educationally, you're fine, but god help you if you need extra help because the teachers don't have the time or the resources to help. I just think that teachers are reat, ut I am so glad I didn't pass my exams because I couldn't hack it these days. By the way, I went to private school and was regarded as a total failure because I only got one A-level, not 3/4/5 like the others, who incidentally changed their attitude to me when I announced that I was getting a job. Looks of horror and pity all round and murmers of "oh, well, she was the scholarship girl" etc...IT'S HARD BEING A PARENT, ISN'T IT!!

I've read this whole thread and am not really sure what Uhu intended to get out of it? Seems as though her point is that people who scrimp and save for fees are doing their children a disservice, regardless of how shit the state provision in their area may be.

Easy to say that from the perspective of "We could easily afford it but have decided against on principle". Reminds me a bit of Harry Enfield's "I'm considerably richer than YOW!"

As for "I'm sure [my male colleague] could find some good state schools if he bothered to look" - what is that about? Does she honestly think that anyone would "not bother" to look at the schools in their area? Hello? There are quite large swathes of this country with NO DECENT SCHOOLS. So to say she would never cough up for private school is ridiculous. Surely she can't be suggesting that anyone who lived in an inner city area with totally crap state schools, but could afford private school, still send their children to a state school to gratify their own misguided principles?

I think not. Anyone remember Diane Abbot?...

well, I am likely to send ds and dd to state school, which seems to be nice (but as mentioned not familiar with uk system. And yes, we could afford to go private either on dh or my salary.)
A friend of dh sends both children to private school (and have nooo idea how state schools are in his area). His wife has to to a 100 miles daily round trip to take ds, dd and dh to school/work. In addition their father often goes to work other side of the country to do some extra work to earn extra monney. Well, I personally think that is over the top. And yes, if they want to do that that is up to them but still doesn't change my opinion so sort of agreew with Uhu from that pointof view.
O, yes I am thinking about sending to a private school at secondary level...

anyway, my opinion doesn't matter but I'll continue to follow the discussion in the hope to make a decision...

Hmmm. I agree with Tigermoth that some people have been a bit harsh on uhu. This is always going to be an emotive issue because we have all made our own decisions based on strongly held beliefs about what's best for our kids and our ideals surrounding education generally. Maybe describing her mate as droning on and on wasn't the most tactful thing I've ever read on mumsnet but equally it's far from the most unpleasant, IMO. I'm almost certain that uhu wasn't condoning the awful action of the chair-throwing pupil, hula. (Please tell me if you were in fact condoning such actions, uhu and then I can retract these comments and point at you, chanting "Evil! Evil!" if necessary.)

I also think that Uhu has raised a real issue- it does seem very sad that a minority of parents feel compelled to make stringent financial sacrifices to educate their children privately. I'd guess that could put a real strain on family well-being and it seems a shame that state schools are not cutting the mustard with such families, for whatever reasons.

p.s. of course your opinion matters as much as the next person's, lalag. Why wouldn't it?

Just wondered if people ever thought of this from another angle too...

Is there any difference to

(a) working hard and "being a slave" to private school fees

AND

(b) working hard and "being a slave" to paying the mortgage just to be in the right catchment area?

We hear a lot of debate about scenario (a) YET I bed there are many more people in scenario (b) - also working hard and several hours, in order to pay for over-priced housing just because it is in the catchment area of a good state school. Yet, if you consider the option what is the difference, really?

but Hula - there is a difference - as in scenario b you would hopefully be owning a more valuable piece of property than otherwise would be the case by living in the overpriced good school catchment area - i.e. that hopefully the extra money paid would to some extent come back in one way or another in future, whereas in scenario a, the fees get paid to the school and that's that

Idon't particularly mind if she describes her friend as droning on and on, for all i know the friend do just that.

'I think some of you teachers would whinge about the kids, no matter what kind of school you teach in' pissed me off no end. She is underplaying the serious cooments thatwe made by saying that we would whinge regardless.

very good point, hulababy, and I'd just like to add: how about one parent NOT working all the hours God sends in order to pay fees/mortgage, the family doing without the extra money, and the children getting more - - "quality time" with that parent?

I think too much of living ultra frugally in order to meet out of proportion financial commitments is not usually good for family harmony and enjoyment, whatever the the financial commitment is, hula.

But, not always. Take a school I worked at. Very very good school. Houses were way above their true value becuase of the school. Well, the school changed its catchment area, as a result of a large housing estate built closer to the school. Within days, those houses no longer in catchment dropped by thousands! There was uproar, but the school still went ahead with it.

And what about those schools that decline in quality, which does happen quite a bit. A one time "top of the league" good school can change int he space of a few short years to become an average one - for many reaons. Then house prices drop.

I was more talking about the principles behind the decision though - you know the idea of being a slave to the fees/mortgage because of a school and your child's education. Becuas ein tat sense it is very similar.

Benefit of (a) - possible better education; in some cases definitely a better education and more opportunities for your child

Benefot of (b) - possible better education; in some cases definitely a better education and more opportunities for your child

Depends if you have a mortgage. There was a calculation in one of the papers a while ago, that costed the mortgage payments etc and found that it could cost as much as school fees.
Re catchement area etc-anthony Seldon-headmaster of Brighton college-started a debate on this a while ago. Perfectly valid point IMHO.

Quite lulupop.

Another potential controversial scenario:

Is it wrong for ONE parent do do all the working long hours and being the slave to the bills/mortage, etc so that ONE parent can stay at home so that they can look after their own child, rather than use childcare?

And I do know of where this is the case, and that the family is struggling financially, but have chose to as they prefer mum to be at home with the child until secondary school age.

BTW, this is not my viewpoint. I don't believe I have the right to judge what anyone does and how anyone lives. I think everyone should feel confident and happy to make their choices of what is best and right for their own family and circumstances. Just being devil's advocate I guess a bit.

Well, you're a better woman than me Madame hmb because I really do need a bit of a whinge every once in a while. Maybe that was all uhu meant? That everyone has to offload about work/family/play occasionally? I guess I can see how you might feel cross at having your concerns dismissed as a whinge though. Just not sure that it was evilly intentioned rather than a bit tactless. Anyway, will shut up now and let uhu speak for herself if she wants to. Have a nice evening all.

miggy - that is exactly right. Our IFA also costed out several scenarios for us, and does this often for his clients.