Steiner/Waldorf Schools - requesting info from those in the know...

[Rantmum]

...anyone know anything about the Steiner/Waldorf school system, pros and cons (particularly with reference to early years/primary education, but any info is good!. Had not really given them too much consideration but have recently moved and met several mothers who speak highly of the their approach.

Alot of teachers haven't a clue either- there are many anthroposophy books on their training course- and stuff about the four temperaments, and it all makes very heavy reading. They are advised, too, not to give away too much.

If they didn't use Steiner's very prescriptive curriculum- they wouldn't call themselves a Steiner school would they?
The curriculum is nearly the same all over the world- they do various bible stories and myths at very particular stages and ages- because the children are meant to be able to recognise, and catch glimses of their past lives from these myths. Why don't they do the myths of Arthur and Merlin for instance in Wales? It wouldn't be that different from , say, the Norse Myths. But they don't- they stick rigidly to Steiner's bizarre ideas- everywhere. It is a cult like religion- although they call it spiritual science- the science is believing in the reality of angels, gnomes, water sprites, cosmic and astral forces and that misletoe cures cancer.

^Alot of what's being said here is typical-
most parents are happy to go along with it.^

Please don't assume that I have "happily gone along" with something without doing research first! Re read what I have written before casting me as some numbnut.

they are secretive-and it's quite possible to go through all of it without hearing things like anthroposophy mentioned

I researched Steiner before I moved my children, I knew about anthroposophy 4 years ago (it is no secret - google is your friend)and asked about it in the interview, did you? At the moment I haven't come across the seedy side that you claim yet!

Much of the time- that Steiner Waldorf promote themselves by saying what they're not- no tests, child centred, and as a progressive liberal arts based education. This could not be further from the truth.

OK so I am now all ears, what have you learnt that I haven't?

The curriculum is nearly the same all over the world- they do various bible stories and myths at very particular stages and ages- because the children are meant to be able to recognise, and catch glimses of their past lives from these myths

Could you provide proof or a link to back up this claim?

Why don't they do the myths of Arthur and Merlin for instance in Wales? It wouldn't be that different from , say, the Norse Myths.

You answered your own question!

............................................

Over the years, I have seen people leave the system for a number of reasons ranging from;

1.Non team player (helping others etc)
2.Cant afford the Fees
3.Cant see the benefits of the System
4.Bullying
5.Other reason

May I be so bold as to ask to which category you are most suited?

Ok, you can think all you like that I am blindly going along with something that I know nothing about, having done no research into it, and closed my eyes and ears to the 'secretive/evil/cultish' aspects of it.

I know about Steiner. I know about anthroposophy. I know that some of the things believed by the lunatic fringe thereof are, well, lunacy.

But I also know that I (with 20 years experience) am very happy for my child to be educated there.

You may well have had a bad experience and I would not be so rude as to discount that. In my experience, Steiner schools are not 'secretive' about their beliefs. As I said in my previous post, it is hardly in the interest of the schools to reel in unsuspecting parents who are not going to be supportive of the educational philosophy.

I find it strange that you apparently did no research of your own before choosing to send your children there. I do my utmost to fully inform myself about every choice I make for my child - as said by myself and Lush2007, the information is all out there if you look. Tbh it sounds to me like you were the ones happily 'going along with it' without knowing exactly what you were getting into, when a few minutes of internet research could have told you that it was not right for you and your children.

There are extreme (indeed quite bonkers) exponents of most things. That does not mean you can discount the good in the entire system.

And no, nobody at the school told me that Steiner spoke as a man of his times. I can see that for myself. Marie Stopes had many ideas that we consider objectional today, but her contribution to the birth control movement cannot be discounted on that basis.

Stripeymama although, as I said earlier, we're now moving a way from Steiner and I hate these threads because they become so outraged..I do want to add something here to balance the 'lunatic fringe' accusations. When my oldest DS was 4 he started at the local, well-regarded state primary and the change in him was frightening. He wouldn't eat, he had tantrums the whole time, he was being bullied in the playground and was MISERABLE. I didn't do a lot of research, I just knew that I wanted something radically different. I will be forever grateful to the Steiner kindergarten for restoring the smile to his face and the bloom to his cheeks. He was SO happy there. I automatically sent my younger DS, again without doing much research into Steiner, simply because I could SEE that it was the right place for him.

Whooaah ! Lush and Stripey,
I'm sorry you're taking this so defensively.
Our family is certainly not the first to have had a bad experience of Steiner school.
We experienced appalling teaching, hints of race issues, bullying,chaotic classrooms, and other quite horrifying stories which I'm not going into here for various reasons which I hope you'll understand, and believe me- there were some horrors.

We bought into the creative natural, musical side of Steiner Waldorf- from the school's literature and website.We discussed it with two families who were there already. We visited the school three times, had an interview and meetings. Not once was anthroposophy, soul, spirit, reincarnation or any of the other central themes of Steiner Waldorf mentioned. We were emphatically told it was not religious- I can see the teacher telling me that now- and it was years ago.We read about Steiner as being a writer and philosopher who believed in freedom of the individual. We asked about Steiner , and what recommended books they had to help us as we embarked on this new education for our kids. We TRUSTED them. The two books they recommended didn't mention any of the anthroposophical stuff either.

It is well known apparently , that the wickepedia page on anthroposophy is monitored 24/7 to make sure it gives the right picture.

I read a book not recommended by the school- which touched on some of the more bizarre aspects- and when I asked the school- they said that the temperaments weren't considered important, and that reincarnation was only used in the context that the children have a past and a future.They said they only took what they wanted from Steiner.This reassurred us- they would take the creative and story- telling aspects- the music and in touch with the earth aspects,the woodwork and the knitting, and disgard the cosmic forces, soul, spirit world. This was after all , a liberal, international, progressive school.

Of course- this wasn't so. I soon learned that dividing the children into temperaments informed a great many choices made about the them, as well as cosmic and astral forces. Bullying wasn't dealt with as it interrupts the children's Karmic path. Left-handedness is a sign of an incarnation problem. And more and more bonkers ideas.

I take it that you feel it's ok to be duplicitous in the promotion of a school? Because that's what it is. You must feel it was your responsibility to trail libraries and the internet to find out about the main core of the curriculum of the school you are to entrust your children to?

Lush- I don't think it's liberal or creative either. The art is completely prescribed- it's been said a hundred times before- but it all looks the same- the wet on wet "paintings" progress from kindergarten nothings- where they're not allowed to do anything but wash- no lines, no points, no dark colours-reasons- all anthro soul, spiritual nonsense- to higher up the classes where they copy the teacher. But you must know all this. The wax block work in the main lesson books are a bit more individual.

The children listen to the same teacher for seven years- no text books, no audio visual stimulation apart from that- and then copy screeds and screeds of this teachers stories of myths, or local geography from the board.

My kids did actually get some good things from their time there- they were ahead in French and German, they could play happily in an orchestra, and anything that came after was child's play compared to what they went through- and what is still emerging.

Yes- we castigate ourselves for not finding out more- a common reaction to having left something like a cult. But they lie and they use the silent treatment when their backs are against the wall. This is one's children we're dealing with- it's not simple.

I feel, as you may gather - strongly that Steiner Waldorf should be open and accountable.

I'll find the links to the teaching myths at various ages, so the children can recognise their past lives- I'm surprised you missed that one - but there's certainly a ton of Steiner to wade through.

I'll find you some other links too if you like- about the superiority of the aryan race- or about Lucifer and Ahriman, or why the advent spiral is so significant.

Lush- when you asked about anthroposohy in the interview- I'm interested to hear what they said. Did they say- "We don't teach it to the children. It's not in the curriculum atall" ? That's the stock answer- because it's true- they don't teach it- they USE it.It informs everything they do.
And if the teacher is new, and underqualified- as one of my daughter's was- she had a higher certificate- whatever that is- and nothing but the Steiner training- they're "on the path" to higher knowledge themselves- so they don't really understand it anyway.
This particular teacher was mentored by the very anthroposophic elder teachers- just to make sure she didn't make any mistakes. And she was desperate to please them and have their approval- so loved the cosmic dream states and temperaments and all the other bunk.But sometimes, she let something slip, which the elder ones didn't think was appropriate for parents ears- you could see the confusion and fluster. Eugh!

The morning verse is a prayer- there's a quote of Steiner's confirming this- he said something along the lines of it really being a prayer but people shouldn't be told- I'll try and find all these links for you.
And Eurythmy- it's definitely about the soul and connecting to spiritual worlds - Steiner said something very precise about this. I'll try and find it all- but there's this -
"The vowel is born out of man's inmost being; it is the channel through which this inner content of the soul streams outwards.... If we utter the sound A, (as in mate) and take this out-going stream of the breath as the prototype for the Eurythmic movement, we find that this breath stream reveals itself to our imagination as flowing in two crossed currents. This is how the Eurythmic movement for A is derived.... --Rudolph Steiner

We can accomplish our work only if we do not see it as simply a matter of intellect or feeling, but, in the highest sense, as a moral spiritual task. Therefore, you will understand why, as we begin this work today, we first reflect on the connection we wish to create from the very beginning between our activity and the spiritual worlds....Thus, we wish to begin our preparation by first reflecting upon how we connect with the spiritual powers in whose service and in whose name each one of us must work." --Rudolf Steiner
www.eurythmy.org.uk/faq- On this eurythmy site they even say themselves
"By incorporating gestures that express soul moods, planetary and zodiac influences, the eurythmist also reveals what lives silently within the audible"
and
"The vital, life forces that surge through our etheric bodies include the forming power of the zodiac and planets. These can be made visible through their corresponding eurythmy gestures.
"By incorporating gestures that express soul moods, planetary and zodiac influences, the eurythmist also reveals what lives silently within the audible"
Like yoga? Maybe- but if my kids were doing yoga to connect with spiritual powers, express soul moods,and making visible their surging etheric bodies through the planets in dance clas- I think I'd like to be told.

It's discouraged to learn to read before the milk teeth come in anthroposophically they don't think they're spiritually ready until then- their milk teeth are formed by the mother's spiritual forces- and their own teeth come from the childs own forces built up from the spiritual world. That's the reason- not because it's what they do in Europe- although I happen to believe that later reading and more play is a really good idea. And i was glad my yopunst didn't learn 'til later because she caught up really fast.
I think it's a crying shame that Steiner Waldorf doesn't fill the gap that's so despereately needed- and there are some good things about Steiner.

Like I said Lush- I don't think you're seeing the whole picture- just the bits you want.

Stripey: re, "did you do any of your own research on Steiner education prior to getting involved?"

No. I Google a potential client. I Google the law firm I might hire. However, I did not suspect that the local kindergarten might have dirty secrets that would be discovered by some research.

Yes, that was my naivete. Still, you have to know that schools have an obligation to correctly represent themselves. If yours was indeed upfront about their spiritual/religious agenda, great for you. Our local Steiner school is definitely not.

"What exactly made you think it would be suitable for your family?".

That the kindergarten is a house with a garden (rather than part of a building) where children can play outdoors and that the teaching approach is gentle and art-based. In comparison, the French school system tends to be very rigid, even at 'maternelle' level.

"The prospectus for 'our' school mentions the spiritual and religious aspects and I'd be surprised if that wasn't true for other schools."

Here is their website and they do not have any other promotional materials. Can you find the words spiritual, belief, Anthrosophy, prayer, soul, spirit, or anything else that might suggest the 3 year old I would leave in their care would be brainwashed instructed in these concepts?

No? Well, that is not very honest of them then, is it?

Here is the French government's June 1999 report on cults ('sects' in French).

Scroll down to:

3.- Les établissements contrôlés
Trois mouvements sectaires importants, l'Anthroposophie, la Scientologie et le Mouvement raëlien, se sont attachés à créer ou à prendre le contrôle d'établissements d'enseignement privés hors contrat, du primaire et du secondaire. Là encore, au-delà du prosélytisme, les enjeux financiers ne sont pas à négliger.

On compte en France une trentaine d'écoles se réclamant de la pédagogie de Rudolf Steiner, fondateur et inspirateur de l'Anthroposophie qui se veut l'héritière de sa doctrine.

S'il est clair que toutes ces écoles ne revêtent pas un caractère sectaire, plusieurs mériteraient cependant une investigation approfondie. La Commission a, en effet, eu connaissance de dérives. Les méthodes pédagogiques particulières à certaines écoles ont été critiquées notamment par l'Inspection de l'Education nationale. Ainsi, les apprentissages du langage structuré, de l'écrit et du calcul ne seraient pas engagés avant l'âge de 7 ans. En outre, les enfants inadaptés à la méthode Steiner seraient soumis à des sévices et beaucoup ne seraient pas à jour de leurs vaccinations.

Alors que les tarifs de la scolarité affichés peuvent être considérés, pour certaines familles, abordables (entre 14.000 et 18.000 francs par an), l'Inspection de l'Education nationale a repéré des établissements où les tarifs pratiqués étaient si élevés que des parents d'élèves, afin de pouvoir les honorer, s'étaient trouvés contraints de travailler pour l'Anthroposophie.

And a bit further down:

L'Anthroposophie, déjà évoquée à travers les écoles Steiner, exerce, parallèlement à la pédagogie, d'importantes activités thérapeutiques.

Elle s'appuie, d'une part, sur un important réseau de praticiens, fédérés dans l'Association médicale anthroposophique de France (AMAF), d'autre part, sur plusieurs centres thérapeutiques qui accueillent notamment de jeunes handicapés, enfin sur les laboratoires Weleda, qui emploient environ 180 personnes à la fabrication de produits cosmétiques et diététiques mais aussi de préparations médicamenteuses.
Officiellement, la médecine anthroposophique n'implique pas l'abandon de la médecine traditionnelle. On cite cependant des cas de patients, atteints de leucémie, de troubles neuroleptiques ou de cancer du sein, dont on avait arrêté le traitement médical pour les soigner exclusivement avec des poudres ayant subi des " manipulations spirituelles ", des massages, des tisanes et... le port de maillot de corps en soie (susceptible de guérir le cancer).

Personally, I don't want to have anything to do with a group who made it to the official shortlist of cults operating in France, right along Scientology and Raelians.

Cote d'Azur - your inclusion of the website for the school to which you would have sent your children made me understand exactly how I got drawn in. I mean, who WOULDN'T want such an idyllic environment for their child?!

I don't want to put the website of the school our kids were at because it's too identifying- but it's the same story as Cote.

Look at any website for Steiner schools-and you'll find the same things- very occasionally there will be a tiny bit about anthroposophy- this is quite a good one-from a big Steiner school in Sussex.

"Many different paths lead children and their parents to Michael Hall. From the moment of their arrival the new family will notice the friendly, relaxed approach ? and soon, after more involvement, they may realise that ideals of a far-reaching nature and a complex picture of the human being ? Anthroposophy ? lie at the heart of it all. This is seen in many areas ? in the curriculum, the approach to each child, the teachers? training, the organisational form of the school, the approach to food, clothing, play and even medical treatment."

Says alot doesn't it? I particularly like the part about after more involvment you may realise- great- of course you may not realise either. They dig themselves a nice hole there,- but manage to say NOTHING about spiritual, reincarnation, souls, cosmic and astral forces.

Michael Hall School carries on it's paragraph about anthroposophy here-".All this is very different ? but why? The ideals underlying Michael Hall were established by Rudolf Steiner at the beginning of this century, yet they are still new, astonishing and invigorating. Though these concepts may seem strange, confusing or even uncomfortable to some, working with them is a challenging task for teachers and parents alike. Many parents at Michael Hall relish taking up this challenge and are determined together with the teachers to create an even better Steiner Waldorf school"

Mmnnn

And of course many parents don't- and would like to KNOW about it first. It is amazing really, that so many people fall for it- even though it's- in their own words-"strange, confusing...uncomfortable" I mean- they actually saying all this themselves-- they must really feel it's worth this challenge- in an almost evangelical way. The task of the teacher- in Steiner's words- is a sacred one.
I think this explains a lot.

Well, thats hardly secretive IMO. You are made aware of the philosophical background to the education offered and the choice is then yours whether to research it further.

Cote D'azure - the site you linked to has a link to this, which seems fairly comprehensive and explanatory?

I am not only seeing what I want to. My parents have studied Anthroposophy, and I actually accept that some of the ideas and proponents are quite mad. But I can only speak on the experience that I have had and it is not as you describe.

As I said before, every movement has its lunatic fringe. Anthroposophy is no exception. I just don't think that you can take the (quite evidently mad) views of some, and use them to discount the entire system.

We can post link after link here trying to prove each other wrong, and it is fairly pointless. If the things you have said on other threads (northernrefugee) are true, the school you were at sounds appalling and I'm not surprised you removed your children. The school we are involved with is not like that. Again, we can only speak from our own experiences.

Hi all,

Wow - NR39 thanks for the replies. I am snowed under with a serious amount of work today and will come back later on, hopefully tonight. (fingers crossed)

agree with stripey again, there is no use at all trying to prove each other wrong on here, but I am always glad to here about personal experience rather than second-hand or miss-informed judgement as is so often the case on here re. Steiner!

I'm sure with northen that it is simply that, unfortunately, some schools are not so good as others within Steiner, just the same as our state school system -there are some fantastic state schools, there are some awful state schools.

I know 7 adults who went through Steiner school as kids and I know children attending now, I know teachers also. Of those adults, every single one of them is a shining example of a human being and a terrific advert for sending your kids through Steiner school. the kids I know are not just having a really great time at school, they apear to be developing as people freely and easily; they seem comfortable and confident.

The Steiner school that my dh attended has changed hugely over the years for the better in terms of organisation, they have just received heir second 'outstanding' ofsted report.

sorry northen but, with respect, your tone somehow makes me less convinced by what you say.

If you are seriously considering steiner/waldorf education, please research very carefully first.

warm and woolly?

steiner didn't teach
steiner didn't have children

Thenewgirl - you said 'I know 7 adults who went through Steiner school as kids and I know children attending now, I know teachers also. Of those adults, every single one of them is a shining example of a human being and a terrific advert for sending your kids through Steiner school.'

Do you think steiner school 'made' them into these shining examples?
What about their parents? I know lots of shining examples of human beings who didn't go to steiner school. We are more than the school that we go to. You can't give all of your children over to a school - as parents surely we must be able to claim some credit?

Hi Barking

My experiences are first hand- three children at Steiner Waldorf for about a collective 9 years- they are real, and I think there are enough other "real first hand" experiences around.
Stripey- you are lucky that you've had a positive experience- and as I've put previously- there are positive things imo at Steiner school- my kids got good things from it.
I think the biggest issue for us, is the cover up about anthroposophy, soul, spirit, re incarnation. I completely disagree with you about the secretive, evasive stance on anthroposophy. I can't quite make out if you really know all about it- or have had such good experience of the system, that it hasn't affected you.
Because I think maybe when Steiner schools go wrong- like with poor teaching, bullying, parents asking questions about temperaments and karma etc- that's when the true colours are shown.
Our school just evaded any pertinant questions- it's well known that in Steiner's views, parents aree't important- it's the teacher who is meant to know the child the best.
If you know about anthroposophy and accept this, I can see there wouldn't be many problems.

Stripey- you said "it is hardly in the interest of the schools to reel in unsuspecting parents who are not going to be supportive of the educational philosophy"

So- what exactly is Michael Hall school saying in their prospctus? Exactly that. ( see previous post)

Hi Northernrefugee39 - now here's a shining example of a human being if ever there was one

Sorry if my earlier post sounds flippant but it infuriates me when parents hand over all their power to a school.

My eldest went to steiner for 2 years and we have been living in a steiner community (not intentionally - that's another story) for 3 years.

Stripey- this is from the link you gave- Waldorf answers

"Some of the ideas in Waldorf education and anthroposophy are complex and require a degree of good will on the part of the reader to grasp. However, they form a coherent whole and Waldorf education, as documented by numerous studies and personal experiences, works well when done properly."

This says NOTHING!
All it says is how complex it is! This was always the answer I was given if I asked a question about some Steiner way of doing something with my children- "Steiner is very difficult" They could never come up wth a straight answer- because the answer would have been something about previous lives, or attaining spiritual planes- so they hedge and evade and say how complex it all is.

They rely on people not asking.

Hi the newgirl- so you don't believe what I'm saying? You don't think any of this stuff is true? Do some research.
My experiences are true, and the information I've given lies at the heart of all Steiner Schools. Some are probably more open than others. A Steiner School- particularly those which belong to a Steiner school fellowship or organisation- follow the philosophy of Steiner- or they wouldn't be called that would they?

visit the next 'green fayre' and look beyond nature's playground and organic food.

Look at the people see how they have this dreamy stare, listen to how they talk - slowly, deliberately in a sing-song voice, with a slight germanic/american accent - its not real, they are taught to do so through steiner's 'speech formation' lectures.

Look at what the steiner families are wearing - a type of uniform of cotton, wool, silk the colours of the rainbow, hats, there will be no black. All the women wear dresses or skirts over trousers - I won't explain here as nobody will believe why.

Look at the paintings, they are all the same, there is no creativity.

Watch how the children play, they are not naughty/rude/disturbed - they are spirited/indigo children all busy working out their karma on each other! Is Maya/Theo not conforming? Well they must have a problem incarnating - and while your at it, it's probably best to drop all your old friends that allow their children to watch tv/play with plastic/listen to the radio - keep yourselves to yourselves within the community so you may support each other.

If you question the word of steiner then you and your children are not spiritually advanced enough to trust in his teachings and become one of them.

Or you and your children could always make bread/beeswax candles/sing/paint/walk in the woods/become a spiritually advanced being for free.......