Steiner/Waldorf Schools - requesting info from those in the know...

[Rantmum]

...anyone know anything about the Steiner/Waldorf school system, pros and cons (particularly with reference to early years/primary education, but any info is good!. Had not really given them too much consideration but have recently moved and met several mothers who speak highly of the their approach.

oh dear, I am sorry that there have been so many bad experiences. It does sound as though its all gone very wrong in places. I suppose I have more knowlege of the theory than the practice-I've been to quite a lot of lectures and stuff on education, mainly out of politeness to my mum (am HARDCORE atheist) and I don't see how a lot of stuff here can be reconciled with the theory (this is not to say its not happening, just that it shouldn't be)

Ultimately, incarnation is no one's business but the incarnatee.

Anyone who is not sure if it is for them but thinks it might be-why not go to one of the steiner camps? Lifeways at Emerson College (Sussex) is pretty representative of the good and the bad, IME. Its not massively cheap but its probably cheaper than a term of steiner school...

I honestly don't mean to judge anyone (to each their own and all that) but have to say that I am at some people here calling themselves "atheist" and then (1) believing in fairytale things like reincarnation for which there is no proof, and (2) having no problem sending their kids to a religious/spiritual place like Steiner for brainwashing indoctrination education. From the age of 3.

Really. Does it not disturb you one bit? However great the education there is in terms of being gentle, art-based, teaching kids to love nature and be independent and all that, these are people who (think they are) teaching your child to communicate with the spirit world, are convinced that your child is reincarnated, make your child pray to "the spirit of God" every morning.

Serioously, I am curious. How can you be an atheist and be OK with this?

Heh. That was meant to be brainwashing indoctrination education. But you get the idea.

eh? is that aimed at me?

1. I don't believe in reincarnation, where on earth did I say I did? Fairy tales OTOH-yes they can be very interesting and useful metaphorically.

1. I think we have established that my experiences of ds's kindergarten differed quite substantially from yours.

Also, he went from the age of 4 for one term, most of which I spent there with him, as a parent-helper. And then I pulled him out and HE'd him.

As I have said quite a lot, my experiences of Steiner school is as a pupil and through going to lectures and stuff, I have never pretended to be a Steiner Parent.

But really, that last post feels like a bit of an attack on my parenting. Please don't criticise my parenting choices, no one has critised yours and I certainly would not dream of doing so. It is feeling as though it is impossible to contribute to this thread without being flamed.

I have said it before and I will say it again, different schools are very different places.

I actually wrote that with charlieandlolasmummy in mind, who says she is a "hardcore" atheist and talks about reincarnation as if fact. I did remember there was someone else who said she was an atheist (I guess that was you) but couldn't remember who.

This is definitely not an attack on anyone's parenting. It is not even a judgement. I am just having trouble understanding how one can reconcile being an atheist, not believing in God (because, presumably, there is no proof), and believing in things like reincarnation, spirits etc (for which there is also no proof).

Another related point: As an atheist, you think there is no God. Yet you are OK with your child praying to 'the spirit of God' every morning. How?

I am asking this, because as a life-long atheist myself, I will never let my child be indoctrinated at the gullible age of 3 into believing in God, saying prayers etc. I would rather she not get any education at all than her head be filled with BS.

That is CharlieandLolasMummy.

Excuse me?

I said I was an atheist. I don't 'believe'
the things that the Anthropops hold dear - I let them get on with it and snigger behind my hand. I am aware of their beliefs though.

At the school DD is at, there is no 'prayer' in the morning.

Anyway, in the UK all state schools are required to provide on a daily basis a 'broadly Christian act of worship'.

Here

yes, I am charlieandlolasmummy (well I am NOT but...)

using the magic of MN I have changed my name back to my usual one, after someone asked if I had actually called my kids after a tv show .

I dunno about the prayers, I am quite relaxed about such things really. They don't do it in the kindergarten, and I don't know if they do it in all schools. I don't remember ever saying them. At my atheist state secondary school, we DID say them.

I think that the universe is an utterly fascinating place, and we really don't need religion to explain it. There are mysteries and wonders enough to keep anyone going (dark matter? quarks? grand unification theory? All fascinating). I don't feel I need to keep my kids away from religion, I feel that there are much much more interesting alternatives out there and that, given we are quite a sciencey family, they are going to incline towards those anyway.

But I do take my kids to religous services. Aside from weddings and christenings, we also do Christmas and Easter services-the kids grandparents are all religious, and my way of dealing with this is to take them MYSELF to stuff. Avoids a family rift, but also gives me control.

I suppose the short answer is that religion just doesn't bother me much. Its not for me. But there are worse things my kids could do than believe in God-vote Tory, for example

I may not believe in God, but I do read dd the Christmas story - I think its important she understands what its about (and I tell her FC is real - I know its not true, but I want that magic for her).

I take her to Passover meals with my father's family and to see Diwali fireworks with friends.

I take her to look round cathedrals and stone circles - both are equally amazing.

She has seen me jump over a fire in the woods at Midsummer and cover my head for the lighting of Shabat candles.

I want her to have a wealth of experiences, and to understand and respect the beliefs of others, even if I do not share them.

fillyjonk - ok, now that I have the personalities sorted:

You said: :"I don't believe in reincarnation, where on earth did I say I did?"

Well, at 10:13:21, you said "Ultimately, incarnation is no one's business but the incarnatee.". Here you talk about an immaterial thing being incarnated as if it is fact, and 'no one's business by the incarnatee'. Sorry about the reincarnation/incarnation mixup here, but it is not much different in my eyes. In both, you believe that there is something to be incarnated (or reincarnated). Soul/spirit/whatever for which there is no proof.

No judgement. What you believe is entirely your business. I just thought that an atheist would similarly shun other beliefs for which there is no proof.

As for "I don't remember ever saying them [morning prayer]". Here it is, from www.anthroposophy.org.uk

I look into the world
Wherein there shines the Sun,
Wherein there gleam the stars,
Wherein there lie the stones;
Where, living, grow the plants,
Where, feeling, live the beasts
And wherein man, ensouled,
Dwelling to spirit gives.

I look into the soul
That lives within myself.
God's spirit lives and weaves
In light of Sun without,
In depths of soul within.

Spirit of God, to thee I pray
That strength and blessing
For learning and for working
May live and grow within me.

Here is a Facebook group where former students have posted the morning prayer in their own languages. I can confirm that the French one is an exact translation of the above.

In fact, Google "Steiner morning verse" and you will see that students at every Steiner school repeat this prayer every morning.

Did you go to a special kind of Steiner school?

No. I went to one where that verse is not said. I am not aware that every schol says the same verse - in fact I know that they do not.

And what is your view on the fact that it is law in the UK for all state schools to 'provide a daily act of broadly Christian worship'? You can't get away from religious aspects in education, it seems.

If you are not aware that every Steiner school says the same prayer (verse, in Steiner-speak) every morning, it sounds like you need to do some research on the subject. Google is your friend. UK, Sweden, Canada, among others.

And re "the fact that it is law in the UK for all state schools to 'provide a daily act of broadly Christian worship'"

I couldn't care less. I don't live in UK. And if I did, I would not send my children to any school where they would have to do some Christian worship act every day. I would send them to a private school where education is secular.

Besides, my understanding is that even if you send your children to state schools in UK, you have the option to excuse them from worship.

Check out this report on Steiner schools in England.

Now go to Appendix 7:

EXAMPLE OF MORNING VERSES AS RECITED IN ONE SCHOOL

Classes 1-4

The sun with loving light
Makes bright for me each day
The soul with spirit power
Gives strength unto my limbs
In sunlight shining clear
I meditate oh God
That strength and grace and skill
For learning and for work
In me may grow and live

Classes 5-8

I look into the world
Wherein there shines the sun
Wherein there gleam the stars
Wherein there lie the stones.
The plants they live and grow
The beasts they feel and live
And man to spirit gives
A dwelling in his soul
That living dwells in me
God?s spirit lives and weaves
In light of sun and soul
In heights of world without
In depths of soul within
To thee, oh spirit of God
I seeking turn myself
That strength and grace and skill
For learning and for work
In me may live and grow

Gee, what a coincidence. Wouldn't you say?

Are you still claiming Steiner schools don't say the same morning prayer every day?

Well if you couldn't care less about the religious aspect to UK state education as it does not affect your children, I don't really see why you care about what verse may or may not be said in any other school that your children do not attend.

The fact is, most people who send their children to a Steiner school are well aware of the spiritual side to the education - the ones who aren't must be determined not to know anything about the school they are sending their children to.

I think its far less likely that parents are aware of the religious requirements pf UK state schools - much less their right to excuse their child from them.

Er, that says at the top "example of morning verses as recited in one school"

Still not sure why you are so bothered anyway.

"Well, at 10:13:21, you said "Ultimately, incarnation is no one's business but the incarnatee.". Here you talk about an immaterial thing being incarnated as if it is fact, and 'no one's business by the incarnatee'. Sorry about the reincarnation/incarnation mixup here, but it is not much different in my eyes. In both, you believe that there is something to be incarnated (or reincarnated). Soul/spirit/whatever for which there is no proof. "

er...

no, that is really NOT what I believe

That is what THEY believe.

I am very familiar with these beliefs because my mother is both an anthroposophist and a teacher (not a steiner teacher but she has obviously taken a lot of interest in Steiner education-and incidentally, would agree with a lot of the negatives here, which is why she is NOT a steiner teacher)

I believe that when you die you are worm food...

"I don't really see why you care about what verse may or may not be said in any other school that your children do not attend."

Are you playing dumb?

The point is that Steiner schools all say the same prayer in the morning that talks about 'spirit of God' and 'the soul that dwells in me' (obvious reference to reincarnation) and they don't tell prospective parents about this.

I was told "Children start the day with poems". That is hugely misleading (you would think teacher reads different poems, children learn the ones they like, etc) and woefully dishonest.

"The fact is, most people who send their children to a Steiner school are well aware of the spiritual side to the education - the ones who aren't must be determined not to know anything about the school they are sending their children to."

Yeah, right. We are trusting fools who didn't do their homework and believed the school facade. Idiots who didn't think of digging up the dirty secrets OF A KINDERGARTEN fgs. The school is right in not telling us about their religious agenda, bizarro beliefs about the spirit world, reincarnation and the like.

You remind me of that joke where a guy is robbed. Tells this to his friends and they say "Oh, you should have installed an alarm system.", "You should have bought a dog", etc. He replies "Is the thief without blame, then?"

"Er, that says at the top "example of morning verses as recited in one school"

I am beginning to wonder if it is even an act.

Let's go over this slooowwwwlyyy:

In France
In Canada
In Sweden
(and doubtless in many other places where I can't be bothered to look now)

... Steiner schools have the same morning prayer

This is the same prayer recited in www.anthroposophy.org.UK (That is United Kingdom - where you live). It is given as "morning verse used in the upper classes of the Rudolf Steiner schools". Not One School But All Schools.

Is that clear?

If not, re-read the above as many times as necessary.

But we DIDN'T say that prayer at ds's kindergarten (I KNOW because I stayed with him, as I said), and I REALLY don't remember saying that prayer at school either. Its quite a long one and I think I'd have remembered it.

Am very puzzled here.

Perhaps we have been inadvertantly supporting a rogue Steiner kindergarten

fillyjonk - Sorry for the misunderstanding. In my defense, it does look like those are your words rather than an explanation of what Steiner people believe.

And to clarify further, I don't remember us saying ANY prayer, at any kindergarten or school, ever. I really don't.

I mean, I am not sure how bothered I am by saying prayers or anything, but the fact is that we just didn't say it.

This is actually getting slightly surreal...

Two different rogue ones!

Quick, tell Steiner HQ.

yes

there is probably a special tin can telephone for this eventuality