Non grammar school areas - do you regret not having had a child have a chance of grammar school?

[mids2019]

I live in an area with no local grammar school but am aware of other parents that have made decisions to move into grammar school areas with their children gaining successful entry.

Does any one else sometimes feel they would have liked their child the opportunity to take the 11+?

I sometimes feel my children are vaguely aware of grammar/private schools where the 'bright kids go' and dont want them to feel educationally less esteemed.

I disagree with selective education- so I was pleased not to have a choice.

Didn't mean to be abrupt!!
It's all personal choice!

We have 2 dc, one in a free selective grammar and one in state comp.

Purely dc own effort that got them in, we live local and assumed they wouldn't get in but let them try on the off chance and they did it. However, dc is bright but in a pool of ultra bright, ultra tutored children, there is a big gap and it isn't the sole factor but I guess contributing to dc self esteem.

But, dc in state comp,... God above its bloody awful, our local area in Pat's is classed as deprived, and choice of local High schools is abysmal, so in comparison their education will be shit, teachers can't cope, SLT can't cope, behaviour abominable, even when streamed poor behaviour evident in every classroom.

If there are good comps I would say go for a good comp, but if local comps are poor then education wise they are knackered

The education system, discipline etc needs a massive overhaul. It comes to something that one of the better OFSTED rated schools is the school olfpr pupils that have been kicked out of their high schools for being so disruptive!

@JoyOrbison perhaps the local comp is awful because all the bright kids with the pushy parents sent their kids to the grammar. If there was no selective education the school might be better. Research suggests that bright kids mixed with less able pulls the whole class up and improves overall attainment for both able and less able. It is why many schools are opting for mixed ability groups over sets or streaming.

No I went to a single sex grammar school though I don't live where we grew up. It seems to be much harder to get into than when I was child because the catching area is bigger and everyone seems to be tutored for the exam. One of my sisters friends daughters missed out by half a mark.
There is an area in the city I live that has grammar schools but definitely pay a premium to live their. A friend moved there for the schools than became her eldest wouldn't pass the 11th not sure if she is presusing it for her youngest.
I don't think I want my daughter to go to an all girls school and someone of my friends spent our time at school feeling not good enough because they were in lower sets where they would have been above average in a non selective school.

I dislike the grammar school system so pleased I didn't have the option.

We border a grammar area. Our children will go to private primary and then we shall consider moving to give them a better chance of getting places. If they don't, we may have to look at private again, although it will be a big sacrifice for us.

I will do anything to give my children the best opportunities possible. There is an element of sod everyone else but I honestly don't care.

I think they should be available in every county or none.

I think it depends which area you are in.

We only have comprehensive schools and for the most part they are really good schools.

I prefer the comprehensive system (even though Ds only went for a few weeks and dd went to a school in London) I can see it has a huge advantage over grammars as it gives children more choice instead of having the emphasis on purely academics and from ds’s few weeks going to one he was put in the top set for maths and the bottom set for English which I doubt he would have got if it had been a grammar/secondary modern area

Thanks for the replies.

I am aware grammars are politically contentious and we seem to have a divided system with grammars in some areas and not in others.

The local school is not appalling due possibly we are not in the immediate vicinity of a grammar but GCSE pass rates do not really compare with grammars in other parts of the county.

Being aware of the efforts others have made to get their children into grammar schools including moving, long commutes etc. I now have a niggling guilt in not making those efforts.

I disagree with selective education. I know extended family who grew up in Kent and the divide between the grammars and th comps there is shocking and it really let's down the bright students who don't have supportive/pushy parents to help them through the 11+ process as then they're left fairly peerless in the comp.

We don't have any grammars in our immediate vicinity but there are several up to an hour away. People push v hard for their kids to get in but don't always weigh up the long journey on public transport and the difficulty with medical appointments, sports matches and so on.

We have very good comprehensives locally, precisely because there are grammars creaming off the top sets. I'm very glad of that.

I lived in a town with grammar schools (although I went to a comprehensive in another town). The selective system let down so many people I knew (both those who passed and those who failed 11 plus) that I’m very glad the area we live in now has comprehensives.
From what I’ve seen from friends in other areas, the tutoring process for 11 plus does not look at all fun. I know children doing 3.5 hours of mock tests every week at the moment, which seems crazy to me.

I prefer mixed schools. I also think it's good to learn to get on with people from all walks of life. We have a good local comp. With no commuting it gives them a couple of extra hours a day. That's really beneficial for doing homework. Everyone local goes to the same school. Friends are really easy to meet up with. So no in the whole.

Spooky cookies, no that's not the case, and just to clarify we are not the pushy parents. The selective has a 20% intake for local radius meaning the majority of pupils are from non local areas.

And it's not the local comp comp that's shit, it's all of them. We had to take one dc out and have over 30 min drive to another comp as it was so bad. Our locality is fucked education wise, there are bright kids in the comps but their success is a struggle in the environment of the high school. There are so many factors why high schools here xant cope, there are other posters who live in my area and it has been discussed on previous threads not education specific but discussing the area what is going eating and often it is areas that anyone in power refuses to acknowledge or discuss. Comps here have some of the worst attendance and attainment rates, there is a big issue Re deprivation, gang culture, fighting leading to pupil safety, physical a tracks in staff in some schools. The selective might rub against principles but if dc are going to school where a towering yr11 pupil punches a teacher, or staff are being told they'll be raped or stabbed and SLT do nothing, then fuck anyone else's principles about selective, my dc are going where it is safest and likely to educate them.

No amount of disagreeing with selective will change the shit show of education for mere mortals in our area.

Very, very glad to live in an area without grammar schools. Parents get stressed enough about school choices without adding grammars to the mix.

Most bright, well supported children will do well in any school that’s not actually a disaster.

You wouldn’t expect GCSE pass rates to be the same between grammar schools and comprehensive schools. If they’re selecting say the top 20% percent of children, then you should be looking at the results of the best 20% of children in the comprehensive to make a comparison. And even that only works if you’re comparing schools in different areas so the grammar isn’t creaming off the students from the comprehensive.

It's also when you hear the phrase 'won a place to grammar school' which implies I haven't given my children an opportunity of an educational opportunity??

I was privately educated and my partner state. We both went RG unis and hope our children may have similar chances

I might be overthinking this but it feels a little like a grammar school is the 'surer' step onto things??

You would hope the grammars had better overall and average results. They've selected a very small pool of able students from a massive cohort. In fact, many grammars do not perform well on 'value-added' criteria because they have students at a high starting point. A friend who had. A placement in a well regarded grammar said the teaching their was less innovative, more boring and much more repetitive because the teachers were not challenged by their students in the way colleagues at the deprived comp had to really work and innovate to engage their students.

You don't need the comprehensive to be getting everyone top grades - there are students who have health challenges, home difficulties and learning or other additional needs for whom it will never be appropriate or possible to put under pressure or expect those grades from. You just need to know that your local schools enable those who have the aptitude, potential and right circumstances to achieve are enabled to do so. I also value knowing those schools see the students who won't get those grades as also part of their community and that they work hard with alternative provision etc for them..

Doing your best for your dc isn't always moving house or getting them on a bus at 7am. It can be ensuring they are part of a community, have plenty of rest time, can take part in all the activities they want to, can see friends independently and that they grow up knowing grades aren't everything and their peers with challenges should be included, supported and are worthy too.

mids2019

You really can’t compare GCSE pass rates between a school where they have all attained a certain standard and another which has everyone else.
You also have to think about how many of those parents whose children at the grammar school have continued with private tutors so you can’t be sure whether the school is producing those results or the tutors are

@NewallKnowall

You would hope the grammars had better overall and average results. They've selected a very small pool of able students from a massive cohort. In fact, many grammars do not perform well on 'value-added' criteria because they have students at a high starting point. A friend who had. A placement in a well regarded grammar said the teaching their was less innovative, more boring and much more repetitive because the teachers were not challenged by their students in the way colleagues at the deprived comp had to really work and innovate to engage their students.

You don't need the comprehensive to be getting everyone top grades - there are students who have health challenges, home difficulties and learning or other additional needs for whom it will never be appropriate or possible to put under pressure or expect those grades from. You just need to know that your local schools enable those who have the aptitude, potential and right circumstances to achieve are enabled to do so. I also value knowing those schools see the students who won't get those grades as also part of their community and that they work hard with alternative provision etc for them..

Doing your best for your dc isn't always moving house or getting them on a bus at 7am. It can be ensuring they are part of a community, have plenty of rest time, can take part in all the activities they want to, can see friends independently and that they grow up knowing grades aren't everything and their peers with challenges should be included, supported and are worthy too.

Yes! Totally agree with your final paragraph.

@NewallKnowall Great post!

I grew up in a 100% grammar/upper school county (there are no comps). I went to one of the grammars and so did my brother. Virtually all of the grammars are extremely good and the majority of the upper schools are pretty poor. We were living there when our two DC started primary school, and we actually left the county a couple of years later to get out of the grammar system. DC1 has complex special needs and now attends a special school, but at that time we thought he might manage to stay in mainstream. DC2 is very academic and would probably have passed the 11+, whereas we wouldn’t even have put DC1 through the stress of taking the exam. We were very uncomfortable about the thought of our two children receiving completely different standards of education. My brother and I both did well in the grammar system, but as a parent I didn’t feel it was right for my children.

I might be overthinking this but it feels a little like a grammar school is the 'surer' step onto things??

You're thinking the wrong way round.
The grammar selects children who are likely to do well at GCSE. They then go on mostly do well at GCSE.

So getting into a grammar just means that, at age 11, your child is likely to do well at GCSE. Most of these children go on to do well at GCSE, regardless of what school they go to.

The point that is hard to quantify is whether an individual child does better in the grammar/secondary modern (and funnily enough secondary modern schools tend not to be so mentioned when everyone is raving about the grammar system) then in a comprehensive. Plus all the things other than exam results which a child gets from education.
I seem to remember there was a study (can't find it now) that found that, considering all students, non grammar areas got better results than grammar areas with similar demographics.

@NewallKnowall

I agree with a lot you are saying and I hope eventually my attitude mirrors yours.

The long commutes do seem extreme but I do see parents take on this burden. There does seem a culture at my work place (science/medicine) of sending children to the 'best' school their circumstances allow.

The cynic in me sees a lot well renumerated professionals taking strategic decisions about their children's education and in a lot of cases having the same life chances of their parents.

I wonder (perhaps wrongly) whether principles have possibly stood in the way of my children being allowed an opportunity?

No.
The comprehensive my children go to out performs the 2 grammars in the neighbouring borough anyway and manages to provide a good education for children with a range of abilities. I wouldn't swap even if other options were open to us.
However when I was a child, I resented not having a grammar option as I would almost certainly have been happier, given that I attended a very poor secondary school and was bullied for being academically able.
I can see pros and cons, but overall I'm not in favour of selection at such an early age.