Why is it considered okay to go in for private-school-bashing?

[nellyraggbagg]

I met a friend today, who launched into a full-scale rant against 'shiny private school children'. As my DS is one of these 'shiny private school children', I thought it rather offensive. We are not fabulously wealthy; we don't have a 4WD or designer clothes; we can't afford to go on holiday anywhere, never mind abroad; we have shelved all plans to move house so that we can afford school fees. Why, oh why do people think it's acceptable to be rude to someone because of their school choice? I'd never dream of talking about her 'illiterate, chavvy, hoody state school children'!!

Aah yes, dinosaur, that small matter of having the odd £12000 lying around each year. And given that most people probably have at least 2 children, you're looking at a spare £20000 assuming a sibling discount. Hmmmmm ..... hardly life in the real world is it??!!

Well, I have a good job, by most people's standards, but I would really struggle to find those sorts of fees.

Why is it though... if people do have money (in some cases by hard working and saving) no-one really criticizes spending it on cars, interior design, houses, holidays...but spend it on what really matters to you like education or private medicine and its open season?

OK, so it would be totally unacceptable if there wasn't decent state provision for either of these, but given that there is and those who opt to pay for private are still taxed to pay for the state ... whats the problem with having the choice?

What irritates me about people who educate their children privately is the assumption private = best. Maybe that particular school for their particular kids, but not all private schools are brilliant and not all state schools are shit.

And the way they always justify it by saying 'Oh, but we work very hard and have made sacrifices.' Like the rest of us don't! If only us state school scum tried a little bit harder, we too could be doing the very best for our kids...

You're right there edam. I went to good state school. DH was sent to a private school and he realises now it was just because his parents thought it would be better and were impressed by it being a cathedral one... when he could have gone to state grammar school which had better teaching. He couldn't believe the quality of my A level physics notes compared to his and he had to get the syllabus and teach himself and the other boys their Chemistry one!

Emsmum --

The gist of the conversation I was having with dino over the weekend was that I have no issue at all with people spending their money on buying private education if that is what they feel is the best decision for them. I may not agree with their choice, but then I may not agree with their clothing choices either. So what?

What I DO have an issue with, and I encounter it quite a bit among friends/family who have pretty much automatically chosen private education is that they somehow feel the need to justify their decision when they realise that our kids are in state schools. And it pretty much boils down to some variant on how their children are so precious and special that no mere state school could do them justice. Or that all, but really all the state schools in their area are full of 8yo car thieves and mugggers, who their child couldn't possibly mix with without being scarred for life. Or the (generally mistaken) belief that their child won't stand a chance of getting into a decent secondary school without being prepped up for it by going private at junior level.

All of which is well and good but is, as dino said, predicated on the assumption that you have a spare 12K a year per child lying around. And that they somehow couldn't contemplate doing what 90% of the rest of us do, ie. muddle through, try to live in areas where the schools are reasonable, try to support our children with their schoolwork, remember that the vast majority of people at good universities went to state schools, and hope that it will all come good in the end.

So -- send your child to any school you like, but please, please, spare me the routine about how you had to go private, because there just wasn't any alternative. It's really, really annoying.

I thank you.

blimey pagwatch I am sorry but I would really like to clarify:
so you thought when I said

"tbh I am not sure it (shiny) falls into the category of "offensive".
If she had said those arrogant little public school wankers, then I would get your point.
but shiny.. as opposed to what? matt? slightly streaky? in need of a good scrub with the cilit bang?"

I was being serious and not joking? that I was genuinely referring to children who go to public school as "arrogant little public school wankers"?

and that this remark was "deeply prejudiced" and said a great deal about me? and you have come to this conclusion based on my posts on this thread?

actually, scratch that. I am appalled that you would think and say that my previous comment was serious, absolutely appalled. based only on what I have said on this thread.
my apologies if anyone else thought, like pagwatch, that I was stereotyping children who go to private schools as wankers.
the paragraph that pagwatch referred to, that pagwatch thought was serious, was in no way intended to be serious. hence the remark about the cillit bang. and all my other previous posts and following posts on this thread.
I think this is going to be my first ignore because I am shocked that anyone would think and say that I was referring to children as wankers. dear lord.

frogs -excellent post. It sums up how the majority of people live, and the fact that as you say, most people who go to good universities and get good degrees were state educated. If you show an interest and involvement in your child's education, there is every chance they will be successful without you having to throw thousands of pounds into a school as well. And tbh, look further ahead and think 'What do I ultimately want for my child?' Because if it's a career where having been to 'the right' school and being part of some 'old boys/girls network' is important...are they really going to be happy in it??

Where does the £12,000 figure come from? Is that London talking? DS's school (oop north) costs £2,000 per term from Reception to Year 6 - yes, I know that's a large amount of money, but it doesn't add up to 12K (just as well, really, or we'd be stuck). Our local private secondary is £3,000 per term (which will almost certainly put secondary education beyond our reach, given that we've got two children. As our local comp is about as bad as it gets on all counts, I think we may be home educating at that point!!!)

I forgot to say... I think the old boys'/girls' network applies to all schools (and rather nice it can be, too). One of my friends went to a rubbish comp (as she puts it), but has (to her surprise) encountered various people since moving to London who also went there - and they immediately feel that they have something in common, and have helped her out quite a lot with jobs. I think that's the case with all schools, isn't it? It's a bit like finding out that you're from the same town as someone else - it gives you an automatic link with them, even if you turn out to have nothing else in common!

Harpsi
I did misunderstand your comment and have already acknowledged that.

People misunderstood that the op was using a 'dreadful' example and i misunderstood that you were using a 'dreadful' example in your reply.

I have already said that I don't think either should have been used.And I have acknowledged that you were being ironic and that I had missed that.
And I am not really sure why this is a 'thing' really.

Whoever said that if people had the money, they would send their children to private school is wrong. DH and I have the money to send our DTS to private school and we will be using the state system. Both us went to below average comprehensives, both have ended up with PhDs in scientific subjects from good universities and we both earn good salaries (even me working part-time) plus we have fulfilling careers.

We achieved this because

1. Our parents encouraged us
2. We were self-motivated (even though many of our contempories were not)
3. We saw only opportunities, not barriers

We will provide ingredients 1 and 3 for our sons. We will nurture ingredient 2 but ultimately it is down to them.

The state school system has its faults (just like the private) but it not the abysmal pit of failure that its detractors like to portray.

I work with an obstetric consultant who has three children. He earns over £200k per year. All three of his children go to the local comprehensive because as far as he is concern, the education they will receive there is just as good as that at the several private schools in his area. Also, he knows many of the attendees at these schools via their parents - he is still trying to fathom out what exactly the parents are getting for their money other than smaller classes and a hand picked peer group!

Isn't the point this: If state schools really were as good as independent schools, would parents really fork out £14,000 per annum per child on fees when they could have the state school place free?
We are not awash with cash but school fees for my two sons is money very very well spent in my opinion and I live in a town where the state education provision is excellent.

But the fact is that some state schools maybe are as good, its just that some people don't believe this. Thats why they pay.

Independent does not automatically equal good. Anybody who thinks that needs educating.

I wanted my sons to have the opportunity to learn latin and ancient greek and I wanted them to be taught Shakespeare understanding his primary meter - iambic pentameter (amongst other things of course). In short, I wanted them to benefit from a well-rounded quality education. From observation this is something you don't get in state schools. They teach a very narrow curriculum and very few state educated pupils these days are what I would describe as well educated. That is not to say they are not very intelligent even brilliant. I wanted my sons to benefit from a really well-rounded,quality education. Which I am happy to say my boys are getting.
I was a grammar school pupil and I was very lucky to receive a quality education.

"very few state educated pupils these days are what I would describe as well educated. "

Considering that 93% of children are educated in the state system, that is a stupid statement, especially as you probably don't know most of them

I hope your boys have a better grasp of maths and stats than you.

My below average comp taught latin btw. I don't know if it still does now but if it doesn't, I suspect it is because the kids don't want to do it, just like the dwindling numbers doing modern languages.

Frankly, I think anyone who pays £12k a year when they have an excellent state school on their doorstop is bonkers. But by excellent I mean 70% (or above) GCSE A-Cs plus music, drama, sports, several lanuages on the curriculum and lots of extracurricular activities. I don't have a state school like that on my doorstep and it would cost me £100k plus to buy a house in the catchment area of the nearest state school like that.

So I might as well pay the fees and get the school with 99% GCSE A-Cs.

Not read all of the posts but as a product of the 'shiny private school' system and as a parent of children in the not-so-shiny state system, I've experienced prejudice on both sides of the divide. There is never any shortage of prejudice against children who go to 'bog-standard comps' - assumptions made about their behaviour and backgrounds, and their expectations. And perhaps more unfairly as those pupils may well be going to the local comp because they have no choice. If you make an active choice to do other than the norm, it doesn't seem that odd that people will expect you to be able to defend that choice.

There is also an unspoken feeling that if you are choosing the private system, you are casting aspersions on those who do not. But that's their problem not yours.

Have not read all of this thread so aplogies if it has moved on to something completely different from the OP ( in true Mumsnet style.

In my RL experience ( therefore limited), the parents that were the most vocal in slagging off Independent Schools were the ones freely admiting to renting in a catchment area and attending church with the sole purpose of getting their DC into the "right" school.....I never did get to the bottom of what was the "right" school

Frogs - fab post at 23:11:02

But this subject always comes around to the same thing doesn't it - that as best we can we all try to choose the best option for our kids whatever that may be.
If I had a state school as good as my sons that was also within walking distance I would send him there - but i don't. When I was looking for schools for my DD I looked seriously at private and state and in the end chose private because of the location ( again walking distance) and the class size ( 11 children). The range of activities and the education provided in one of the local schools was just as good ( although the closest school to me was grim for a couple of reasons that were deal breakers for me).

The assumptions we make about other parents choices are nasty and devisive.
Two of my kids are at independent school but I would never think they were 'better' automaticly and i believe her friends that go to local state school are getting as good an experience as she is.My choice for her is my choice and it is complicated and entirely up to me.
And equally I never would assume that a person criticizing private education was jealous - I think those with strong objections often have political/ ethical views which should be accepted as such. Sometimes the views people express are to do with envy or disatisfation at their own situation but it is patronizing to believe that it must always be the case.

I guess this is always a subject that will make people angry and i am sorry if my contributions ever add to that.