Private schools are a bloody great rip-off

[fillipo]

and I should know because I used to teach in one!! I'm an English teacher, taught for 8 years in 2 different independent schools and then took the plunge and got a promotion into the state sector in September. It's like a breath of fresh air! And I've moved into the 21st century! Can't understand why I took so long to take the plunge. The teaching staff are on the whole far more professional - they don't have the complacency that some of my former colleagues had. Lessons are vibrant and interesting, the pupils are well behaved and interested. And it's free!! Well paid for through taxes but you know what i mean. Now I fully expect I'll be shouted down by lots of people telling me i'm wrong, but I don't understand why anyone pays for a private education when the alternative seems just as good.

There are many reasons why state aletrnatives might be considered crap tho. They're not here even in the "rougher" areas.

they could have brilliant head teachers, they could have a strong board of governors or they could have educated, open minded, and prinicipled parents sending their kids there which in turn affects the whole structure and substance of a school.

professional parents around here are committed to the state education system and in helping other parents whose lives aren't so ideal.

Out of the senior nurses, clinical psychologists and consultant psychiatrists and paediatricians I work with I don't know one who's child goes to private school.

I did actually do well at spelling and grammar too although you wouldn't believe it cos of all the typos, crap typist before antone comes up with some snidey remark

Peace;lily, I wasn't generalising I was saying what Xenia found in HER local schools and what I found in MY local schools

And I have no prejudiced notions about state schools. Dh and I are both from working class families,he is a peri teacher working in state schools.

He sees what the rest of us don't, what goes on behind the scenes, what is kept from the parents.

even if it's the case in your localities to insinuate that state schools have no ethnic diversity based on what you must know about Britain is quite frankly insulting.

the opposite is true in many cases. And there IS an insinuation in your post that we should have 2 jobs etc. so our children are saved the horror of private schools.

It alos depends what you want from school. My dcs go - well dd has just left - a very average state primary school. It is the catchment school for a big housing estate with a lot of "problem" families - it is also the catchment school for a lot of middle class commuter families. Yes, the academic standards could be higher -and I have done a bit of "topping up" with both of them. BUT, they ahve learnt to mix with a huge range of people, they are well rounded, confident children who have not been sausages meachined or spoon fed and who are growing up with an understanding of the diverse society that we live in. An invaluable lesson, and one that I didn't learn in my home educated then convent school childhood, and that I had to learn the hard way when I went to university. There's more to life than academic success. And for what it's worh, my dd's state secondary school has 3 choirs, 5 orchestras/music ensembles, a choice of 3 different clubs every lunchtime, plenty of sport, good playing fields, Latin and plenty of sport

thankyou seeker. the other "bit" of schooling that's so important is about social acceptance and understanding and exposure to every level of our society.

I went to a red brick Uni from a state school background and my God did I feel it. It's not right that kids should grow up with those sorts of narrow minded and elitist attitudes.

Society is never going to change if everyone is segreagated off into little compartments.

I know I'm ranting but this whole issue really gets to me!

Okay I meant the schools we know around here. Merchant Taylors, Haberdashers, North London Collegiate (where the older 3 children went) - they are without doubt more racially mixed than many of the state schools.Why is that? Because hard working immigrants put education above all so are more likely to pay, because entrance is by entrance test and is hugely competitive - most people who apply don't get in. I can't remember the exact stats. But homes that value education which is often first or second generation immigrants tend to want their children to do better academically.

Also you can get schooling by house price which poorer groups then are priced out of in the state sector. So you then get with the non rich immigrants areas where all the children are from one culture virtually. Whereas go to the local highly selective private schools and many of my children's friends' parents have run a corner shop and all the spare money is going into that place at Habs for the child etc etc.

However I accept that there are many parts of the country where some private schools are a kind of posh white thing where parents want the accent and to segregate their children from others from the "wrong background" and are happy to pay for that. Those tend to be schools where the children are a bit thick anyway and anyone who applies can get in so which parents would want that type of school.

May be it's just hard to generalise. Interesting front page of the Times today - in some areas class divides much bigger - something like 46% of children in Kensington and Ch educated in private sector, Westminster high % too and yet huge numbers having free school meals in those areas too in the state system.

I am not sure about the music thing. I really do think private schools are better. If you assessed how many children have grade 6 - 8 exams and how good the choirs and orchestras are, how likely the church music will be good etc I have not seen that state schools are as good as private schools or not those we've been associated with. I don't know how many after school clubs schools like Habs have but it's huge from Chess to Chinese, riding to all those of the various religions. If you can afford it it's just really nice for the children. I certainly am happy I've paid fees continuously for the last 20 years (20 years ago our oldest started at her first private nursery school).

parental choice - if you want to pay and can afford it then fair enough.

Good to see that academic as well as social snobbery is alive and kicking on here Xenia!

What kind of attitude will kids grow up with when their Mum uses phrases kids "children who're a bit thick" . god forbid that any of yours should come into contact with those thick/complex kids gosh they might be contaminated!

That's downright rude IMO

Xenia - do you really mean racially mixed, or do you mean culturally mixed?

Of course there's good and bad in state and private education, it varies from area to area. Speaking from my experience, I cannot fathom why anyone sends their dc to private school where I live in the UK. My dd's state comp school appears in the top 100 UK schools for accessing university, while not one of the private schools is on the list. I can count on the fingers of one hand - no, make that 'on my thumbs' - the number of people I know who privately educate their children. And house prices are cheaper where we live!

I don't understand why folks get their knickers in a twist about these private school topics. If state schools are so great, and you are perfectly happy with them, and your DCs' are doing brilliantly, why does it bother you what other people do and value?

For me, there is no way I would send my kids to a school that gets a GCSE pass rate of 50% (5 A-Cs), when I have other options. It's not that hard to get a C in 5 subjects, and I think that there are an awful lot of kids being poorly done by when they fall into the wrong side of this statistic. I know that some kids will never make it, but it should be a lot, lot less than 50%. I would also hate to send my children to schools that only worry about league tables - for example, a friend's kid who was not allowed to do higher level Science in case he didn't get the A or B grade - instead, he could only get max C, and was then not 'allowed' to do AS-level Chemistry (and this is a child who wanted a scientific career, and whose parents are both scientists) - this was at a 'good' school, btw.

{apologies for stray apostrophe }

Thetre is no insinuation inmy posts at all, I missed out a couple of words in my op the words "in her area" but I often post in a hurry.

As for me and my 2 jobs. I simply stated what we do, I have never ever ever tried to tell anyone else how to run their lives or what to spend their money on.

I have re-read my piost and have simply statted why I feel that it is value for money and what we do in order to be able to pay for it.

My sister in law feels that the designer clothes she buys her dd are value for money for various reasons and she goes without other things to buy them, personal choice

Exactly IoS. It seems that it is fair game to have a go at folks who spend their honestly earned money on education. However, it would be fine to spend the same money on fancy holidays, designer clothes, furnishings, cars etc.

I know where my values lies.

I think implying that people who don't spend on education therefore don't value education is unfair.

Equally I think that some people who are fortunate with their school catchments haven't had to look at what they might have been offered within the state system, and can afford to turn those noses up at those who opt for private schools. The postcode lottery extends beyond health services!

Personally I am very happy with the dcs school and whilst I would love the government to give me vouchers or whatever to represent the amount being saved by not having my dcs in the state sector, I don't think that I am being ripped off (by the school at any rate). Would obviously be ecstatic if I didn't have to pay the fees amd would have even more holidays. But we do live in a rather strange catchment as we're practically out of range of every state school, except for a church one. I assume that it is an historical anomaly as there are tons of private schools in the area so there hasn't been the same demand for state places. But it does feed a vicious circle as in our road if you opt for a state school then you will be sent to the nearest undersubscribed school (ie no choice), whereas there are private schools which are closer.

Yes, we should get our £5k a year voucher to spend at the private schools as we're saving the state and probably pay more tax than most people anyway so should get more back from the state in return if we're chucking money at the Government at the rate of 41% in the pound for most of our income.

But leaving that unfairness aside, parents pay and must think it works. It's a free market so if the private schools didn't provide what parents are after they wouldn't pay. What they're after differs hugely - some want exclusion from working class children, good accent, right contacts. Not my thing really. I wanted my children educated only with children who are very clever from age 5. So that's exclusion of anyone who doesn't have a fairly high IQ.

Others want a musical education like at Chetham's. Some for unfathomable reasons want children to board away from home. Some want a live in choir school. Others want education according to their cult or religion. Others again want a military environment or a stage school or a school where you don't have to do lessons like Summer Hill.

Lots of reasons to pay if you get yourself as women a job good enough to enable you to pay which most people don't.

What was I being asked about mixed? I suppose I mean both - racially and culturally mixed in the private schools around here but all form homes prepared to put hard earned money into education so therefore from family where education is right at the top of the agenda. In daughter 1's class at Habs there were 2 girls out of the whole class who had 4 British born grandparents including my daughter. The others were from all over the place. When you recruit by entrance test you can get a much fairer system working as we had with the ii+ when we had state grammars.

Every school is different just as every child is different. My DSs have been educated in a mix of state and independent schools and there are many state and independent schools I wouldn't touch with proverbial barge pole. We have chosen to spend a considerable part of our income on education and are lucky to have that choice. But we also live in an area with good state secondaries so our choice has always been the comparatively pleasant task of choosing what was a little better for our child rather than looking for any alternative to the sink secondary.

Yes, but it's a point to debate. Parent 1 has enough to buy child good education but chooses to burden state system and put child in lesser worse performing state school. Parent spends money saved on make up and shoes and holidays. Isn't that wrong?

Parent 2 decided to feed child on junk food and to have no books in the house and hardly ever talk to the child even though it could afford to.

Surely parents 1 and 2 are in analogous positions.

You'd have to going on some pretty amazing holidays and be regularly in harvey Nicks to be spending your "honestly earned cash" to the same equivalent as private education!

there's nothing wrong with spending your money on your childs education if that's what you wanT and can afford it. I don't see all my (fairly well off) collegues who send their kids to state establishments driving 4x4s and wearing Prada!!

they do have cash put aside for lovely holidays and music lessons/drama/horseriding etc and for the odd meal out. It's not to do with "values" and it's insulting to imply ( and it IS an implication) that some of us fritter our money away on luxuries at the expense of our childrens education. What utter nonsense!

My values are about children learning tolerance, empathy, compassion and a real appreciation of the World around them. And all the "marvellous" extra curricular activities in the World won't do that.

Xenia - it would be "wrong" in a list of personal priorities where education is at or very near the top of the list of priorities when it comes to allocating family resources.

But in the UK, along with many other countries, adults are free to determine their own priorities in life . Thank goodness.

High expressed emotion aside, I'm genuinely intersted as to why in some sreas of the country popularly percived as affluent and well heeled (ie parts of London and Oxfordshire) the state schools are deemed to be so terrible that my frinds kids "can't possibly go there".

BF in Abingdon which on the surface seems like a quiet, middle class and serene little town says there's no way her ds will go to a local state school. It's an area that's surely at far greater advantage socially than some other parts of Britain ( such as Manc where I live) yet the schools serving this population are supposedly awful?!

Other friends who have no child yet are debating whether to move out of Islington when they do have one or start saving now for private school.

However in South Manc very diverse population with some V V affluent families people RARELY look at the private option (at least amongst the people I know). Why is this?

Not really that amazing, Peacelily. A decent holiday for a family can easily be over £5000 - and that's just once a year. Add onto that bit of skiing, and a trip away in the Spring.

As far as I'm concerned, hubby and I both work hard, and school is what we prioritise for our disposable income (and we live in a modest house - we could easily have a mortage payment equivalent to school fees). I'm no going to apologise for having a disposable income - we've studied and worked for it.

We obviously move in different circles if a "decent" family holiday costs £5000 then my little crew is done for.

Ski-ing is just one type of holiday and an expensive option. I know loads of families that do go tho, they have a lovely time and don't spend that much!!!

Our last holiday a week in the lakes was £350, twas fabulous.

previous to that pushed the boat out and spent £700 on a week in France and had a lovely though maybe not a "decent" time