Corbyn, vat, private schools

[NoisingUpNissan]

So... Just worried about corbyn and private schools.

I'm naturally labour but couldn't vote for him with this.

We have two kids in prep, couldn't really afford any extra cash. As it stands we have a leaking bathroom (no bath for a year) and old unreliable shitty car, certainly not entitled or priveledged people. Not that it should matter.

Very annoyed as they are only there because ASD and they had 33 kids in their classes!

So, just wondering... Does anybody think this is a real risk?

I don't care if I come across as being all out for myself, I'm all out for my kids. My son is just too autistic to deal with a big class size and needs the extra work as he's v bright.

Please can we stop with the bullshit that “hard working families” earn more money than others . How hard you work has no correlation to how much you earn - what utter bullshit. There are plenty of families out there whose parents work their arses off but couldn’t afford the privilege of private schools in a month of Sundays.

And equally plenty of stinking rich people who haven’t done a day’s work in their lives

So let’s not confuse the issue with all this “I work really hard so my child can go to private school” crap.

Train spotting, good point. I actually grew up in a communist country with only state schools but a grammar system and everybody was heavily private tutored to get into grammar schools and best universities (state). The private tutors were loaded ! People find a way to get their children best possible education even in the deepest darkness of worst communism regime.

Spaghetti, you are right, plenty of hard work families can't afford. This is why I believe education is important,the type of job matters and I believe education gives you more choices and the tools to earn more, hence affording private education for your child. There might be exceptions of course .

“I'll do what I can to give my kids the best start in life because I've worked hard long hours and I CHOOSE to spend MY money on them,”

That’s fair enough, @daffodilbrain - but don’t then say you believe in a meritocracy.

I am all for this. Holland and Germany dont have private schools and do very well. Instead of having a select few getting a great education, rich parents would put the money on their childrens education into the state to help fund better facilities and teaching as they want their children to succeed which would mean everyone learning together in a community spirit of equal opportunity. It would upset Englands class elite but would be very good news all round. Prince George would find himself in a state school which would be interesting. This action doesn't mean getting rid of free schools which arent government national curriculum based but it means getting away from having to pay for a good education and instead having everyone hopefully getting a better education for free rather than the wealthy getting an education, the majority cant afford

@CasparBloomberg well said.

I was very surprised by the assertion about other countries. A very quick google shows there are German private schools. Loads of references found but this was interesting...
www.thelocal.de/20190807/explained-why-private-school-enrolment-across-germany-is-growing

Even more interesting stats including the often cited Finland where this shows 15% of secondary students are in private education. 25% in France. 9% in Germany and 5% in Netherlands. Put 7% uk in perspective ...
data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.SEC.PRIV.ZS

Not so sure about that WorldBank data now, seems a bit

Dolphin, you posted this on another thread.

Germany has very poor social mobility, so I would seriously doubt just how good the education system there is in regards to that.
Vocational schools - yes, those are good. Of course.

www.dw.com/en/germanys-social-mobility-among-poorest-worse-than-in-the-united-states-oecd/a-44245702

“The "tracking" of school children — funneling some students to more academic secondary schools and others to vocational schools — in Germany tends to make it harder for children to move up and down the social ladder.“

As in the article I linked.

This is at the heart of the 'good' German Educational system.

I'm not sure where the assertion that Germany has no private schools comes from. The school my kids attend have a group of exchange students each year from a private school in Germany, who not only attend private school at home, but then look to improve their English as a way to get ahead in the future. It happens everywhere. Parents just want the best for their children. Why do you think 'immigrant' populations such as the Asians in the USA are 'tiger' parents and make their kids work hard, pay for the best tutors etc. No matter what the circumstances, parents will always try and do the best for their children.

Clearly I'm going to get flamed but ... I think anybody that actively pays to relieve pressure on the state should definitely NOT have additional tax. I would swing completely the other way and say the sum of money spent on things like private health and private education should be subject to a tax rebate. The state can not cope. There are plenty of people making huge sacrifices to send their kids privately simply because the state alternative near them isn't great. Plenty of people apply for private schools simply as a back up in case they don't get the "good" state schools. Not everyone has that choice, just as not everyone can afford holidays, cars, childcare etc.

People also gamble to move to a good catchment area, spend thousands and thousands on stamp duty to then find their chosen state school is oversubscribed anyway. The answer is to improve state schools so people have a genuine choice.

“I would swing completely the other way and say the sum of money spent on things like private health and private education should be subject to a tax rebate”

Not going to flame you. Just point out that’s not how taxation works. Also if you got tax relief on school fees you would have to forgo any services provided by state educated people!

State provision for children with SEN is absolutely terrible and needs to be radically overhauled. I understand why you would send a SENs child to a private school but the vast majority to not have that as an option. Currently only 6% of SEN kids go to a private school. We need to improve the schools for the majority of children, not protect the school system that has in a large part created the government's disinterest in the schools most of our children go to.

The very worst thing about this country is the class divide. Two thirds of the current cabinet went to private school. 93% of the country they are serving did not. They have always lived in a bubble of privilege, their children and grandchildren will go to public school. They don't understand poverty or the effects of a shit education. Or have any motivation to improve it. How can they get their heads around what causes someone to stay unemployed for years.
Anything that chips away and ultimately gets rid of this awful system is blessing.

and forgot to say
@daffodilbrain you have to be taking the absolutely piss using the term meritocracy. It literally means " a government or the holding of power by people selected according to merit"

Merit has fuck all to do with our current government. They demonstrate why we should abolish all private schools. Look at our embarrassment of a PM. Are you telling me he is the best we have in this country?. That his sharp brain and statesmanship means got the job? Or that nepotism, supported in a large part through the public school system allowed him to alongside the unhealthy entitlement that system gives you.

Dd went private (boarded.) The difference was huge - the quality of the teaching, small class sizes, extra curricular activities, etc.
The self confidence it gave her was amazing, as well as excellent academic results.

I disagree wholeheartedly with Labour's proposals. It is the politics of envy and being honest I find it quite chilling, particularly the 'redistribution of assets.'

It's a headline-garnering batshit conference motion, not a manifesto pledge. And has some aspects of questionable legality, as others have pointed out. So don't hold your breath.

But isn't there a more serious question which plenty have touched on, ie shouldn't we question why a sector that is in business should enjoy a bunch of tax breaks that other businesses don't (business rates, charitable status etc). Especially when that sector is in a business that perpetuates social division.

And can I stress - said without any judgement of any posters personal choices.

Bring it on Jeremy.

I’d love for the state to be able to pay for and manage my ASD child’s education rather than DH working 7 days pw for us to send him private and me driving all the time.

Go on. Make his school state so we don’t need to pay anymore. You use the magic money tree to pay and me and h will sit on sunloungers whilst the unicorns take care of everything.

Holland and Germany dont have private schools and do very well.

1. Yes, Germany does have private schools
2. It’s also a short hop to Switzerland
3. The entire German system is set for intense streaming so that only the most intelligent/academic children get into the top schools.

It’s incredibly important to remember that the sort of kids who go to private school are often the sort of kids who will have the confidence, the experiences, the home support, the good results anyway. The tragedy is that the sort of kids who would most benefit from a good private school are the sort of kids who haven’t a snowball’s chance of going to one!

And can we please declare a moratorium on the expression “politics of envy”?

The very rich won’t care if you add VAT onto school fees because they can afford the increase. People cheerfully stumping up £40k + a year per child will pay the VAT they won’t remove their children and send them to the local state school.

Yup - totally agree. The people who will be hurt are parents like the OP, who are sacrificing a lot to scrape together the fees, not the really rich, who can afford the increases and who will just send their kids abroad and/or move themselves abroad if Labour get in and start down this road of trying to bleed the rich dry. Rich people have choices that poorer people don't and if a government remove those choices, well then the rich people will remove themselves and their taxes from that government's revenue stream. That's what's so fucked up about this so called policy of Labour's (endorsed by hypocrites like Diane fucking Abbott who sent her DS to a private London school), it will only affect the poorer DPs who currently stretch themselves to afford private schooling for their DC, many of whom have been totally failed by the inadequate state system.

What Bertrand said.

A poster up thread asked about input VAT ie the VAT that private schools incur - in all likelihood it's small relative to total costs - most costs will be employee salaries. But will depend on how they're constituted and how any buildings they own are funded.

Output VAT (ie VAT charged to the customer) is a cost to the customer not the business, which is why it's attractive to any government looking to undermine the model.

“Labour get in and start down this road of trying to bleed the rich dry”

. Paying a bit more tax won’t hurt the rich and will help the poor. That’s how tax works!

Very good post @CasparBloomberg