Sick and tired of this... [sad]

[DemiLee33]

Hello everyone and thanks for listening.

I am at breaking point with my son's secondary school teachers/policies.

For I.E for ridiculous, unwarranted punishments.
Detentions for not having a pen or a shirt untucked.
Most good students in secondary schools are in I.e at least once within their first 2 years of starting. Most students have had at least 10 detentions by the time they have completed year 8.

Once again I have been in meetings, lodged complaints, cried on the phone to them. My son has cried and is so low in mood now because he feels beaten down by them. I have had 2 teachers admit to me that a lot of 'normal' 'good' kids are in i.e or on report.

Their policies are awful! Nationwide, secondary schools are so extreme with their punishments for such ridiculous, unwarranted reasons. Some schools have even started saturday morning detentions!!
I am so tired of not having my voice heard. Anyone else feeling like this? I have started up a fb group to vent about this and it may take off it may not. I have emailed relevant organisations and lodged complaints but these schools are a law unto themselves.

Sorry for moaning
xx

I can absolutely be strict when necessary but I will use it as a last resort, not a first resort and I will let the small stuff go.

What were the other two moves for?

DisorganisedOrganiser I understand. Having done adult training and CPD training and then moved to teaching, it is very different though.

It's not appropriate to wait until 30 students have decided they are willing to end their conversations. They have to learn to be quiet and that means stopping.

Some teens don't learn that and think it's ok to talk during lectures at university. They seemed to think it was fine to talk, text etc based on how interesting they personally felt the lecturer was.
Now when I work with trainees, I see increasingly more entitlement to talk whenever, only follow rules they like etc. I can't help but think some schools and parents are churning out young adults who thinks the world runs on their terms.

I've had to speak to trainees about not following a professional dress code because they don't see the issue even though I know for a fact we went through it at the start of the placement and the training provider has made it clear. They've been taught explicitly or implicitly that they only have do follow rules they like it agree with and get a rude awakening in the workplace. I even point out to them that I don't personally agree with every rule in every workplace I've worked in, but places have rules, sometimes they need challenging and other times you don't agree but need to suck it up.

I think the approach of 'my child hasn't done anything wrong except break a rule that I don't like so that doesn't count' ethos is quite unhelpful.

I think the approach of 'my child hasn't done anything wrong except break a rule that I don't like so that doesn't count' ethos is quite unhelpful.

THIS ^^

I think you need to tour a few secondary schools

I have done, and regularly do. We're preparing them for the outside world and have rules in place just like the outside world does. Just because you disagree with those rules, doesn't mean we won't sanction your child. The rules might not be exactly the same as the rules in the outside world. This is because the rules in the outside world vary depending on where you are. If you're a police officer you have very strict policies around appearance and conduct (even when not on duty) however a cleaner usually has a more relaxed uniform and no controls on what they can do outside of work. Schools all have slightly different rules, like the real world has slightly different rules in different places.

As for the jobs thing, we give students a well rounded education that hopefully opens up opportunities for them to specialise in subject they are interested in later on. Sometimes these specialisms lead to jobs, more often they show a love of learning and the students future job has little to do with their choices. Either way they have had a good experience and have a basic knowledge of things.

No wonder children are getting detentions and punishments for not following the rules when OTOH it’s said that in school

I don't think our rules are really based on the outside world

Then

We're preparing them for the outside world and have rules in place just like the outside world does

And the poster who said dds employer wouldn’t be very impressed if Dd rocked up in her brothers paint spattered trousers
She does have her own cement spattered ones (been tiling all day) which she had on when she left the house this afternoon.

Employer has what they want her to wear on site.

And even if they didn’t they would request a LBD not a specific dress from a specific retailer.

And dds school did have 30 to each class and was completely full.

Just didn’t have the rules and regulations that ds’s normal secondary had and they were a lot more lenient with children who had SENs

They understood that despite coming to school with 10 pens it was quite possible for Dd to lose all 10 before morning break because others did the same

The rules don't need to be based on the outside world to prepare students for the outside world.

We are preparing them for a culture of having rules in the outside world. We are not saying 'these rules will apply everywhere forever'.

The rules in the outside world aren't the same everywhere.

We're preparing them for the outside world and have rules in place just like the outside world does

As in, we have rules in school, and there are rules in the outside world. The 2 sets of rules don't need to be the same.

Employer has what they want her to wear on site.
This is unusual, most jobs you go to work in the required clothes. Rather like school!!

It’s really not that unusual! E.g. the NHS is a massive employer. Lots of their staff wear uniforms and change on site into a uniform provided by work or into something like surgical scrubs (not everywhere of course).

OK so schools will start providing uniform now to suit some of you

Just follow the freaking rules!

Lots of their staff wear uniforms and change on site into a uniform provided by work or into something like surgical scrubs (not everywhere of course).

Great example.

If, say, someone working in the operating theatre decided the rules were stupid and they didn't have to follow them, what do you think would happen?

The uniform rules extend beyond scrubs though. We have general rules that apply to everyone and more specific ones for certain areas. It’s very much not ‘here are some scrubs, wear them.’

NHS staff tend to know which rules to follow, which to bend and which to break. Depends on the job role but certainly critical thinking is a key part of clinical roles. The rules aren’t stupid about theatre dressing so they are followed. Absolutely if you break safety critical rules or ones vital to infection control you will get disciplined.

Some other rules, eg nurses must only wear blue hair bobbles are openly flaunted constantly as they are clearly nonsense and show a massive lack of respect towards staff. Hair is worn up as that makes sense. Etc., etc. I’ve never seen management challenge the colour of hair accessories because it is a piece of shit rule and frankly NHS nursing has far bigger problems.

My entire point is that it is the stupid rules people have a problem with, not the sensible ones.

My entire point is that it is the stupid rules people have a problem with, not the sensible ones

How are dressing appropriately for the situation and being prepared (ie having pens) stupid rules though?

They're not. Only in the minds of precious parents and pampered children anyway.

While I am on the subject, in many, many areas of the NHS staff are openly expected to challenge rules if they believe them to be wrong. If a procedure or rule is unsafe or not best for patients then it is not ok to go along with it just because you followed the rules or established protocol. That argument really wouldn’t protect you. If you have assessed the rule for yourself and feel it is appropriate to follow then great. But you can’t just follow rules for their own sake.

Dressing appropriately... we should be teaching our children that appearance doesn’t matter, not that it does!

A pen... in the real world I borrow a pen if I forget one.

The experienced ones know, But sometimes that knowledge comes with experience and what seems like a small pointless rule isn’t always.

Dressing appropriately... we should be teaching our children that appearance doesn’t matter, not that it does!

What jobs, exactly, mean that appearance doesn't matter? Because if I turned up to work in 6 inch heels and a body con dress I'd be sent home. If I wore wellies and fishing waders the same would happen. It's nothing to do with appearance, it's to do with presenting yourself appropriately for work. You're being deliberately obtuse.

A pen... in the real world I borrow a pen if I forget one.

Ah, one of THOSE people who relies on people who do have their shit together to hide the fact they don't.

Lovely.

I frequently have my shit together and have lent out many a pen in my time too . Sometimes I forget one so the favour is returned.

Again, it’s more complicated than that and your post there is the complete opposite of the advice given at my induction.

If something is wrong with a procedure, you use the appropriate channels to challenge it. You don’t just decide to ignore it off your own back.

If you say so.

Arguing that children shouldn't have to follow rules is ridiculous imo, because the result is a crop of young adults who I work with that drive the rest of the actual grown ups to distraction by being late/not turning up/not completing tasks and expecting everyone else to do it/whinging when they're pulled up.

It's fucking exhausting and beyond irritating. It's basic common sense that if a school or workplace has rules, you have to follow them and if you don't there are consequences that you won't like.

Arguing against it on behalf of your children doesn't help them in any way, shape or form. It just creates entitled pampered adults who can't actually function as adults.

Yes of course you should use the correct channels and not just ignore it! But I’m schools those channels don’t seem to exist. Academies especially are a law unto themselves so you can challenge all you like but nothing happens.

I really don't think teachers expecting students to come to school with (shock horror!!) a pen is an unreasonable request OP!!!! Surely that's the basics of school, he is after all, going there to learn and complete some work. Teach your child to become a responsible adult rather than one that always blames every one else for their own lack of care and responsibility.

I would say in the real world outside school most people required to wear a specific uniform the company would provide the uniform for you.

Dressing appropriately isn't a uniform and some form of self expression is perfectly acceptable.

DP who is in his 60s and works in a very staid industry is the only person in his office who wears a suit and tie.

I think a lot of offices don't dress like schools think they do anymore.

Professional dress might be shorts and shirt or a floral mini dress and doc martens

If something is wrong with a procedure, you use the appropriate channels to challenge it. You don’t just decide to ignore it off your own back
Agree. There are some things I have to do at work that I think are pointless. Some are worth raising, others are a case of suck it up. There are some school rules I wouldn t choose if I was designing a behaviour system, but they're reasonable enough and I'm not going to be that colleague who sells others out by only following the ones I like. On other occasions, I make my thoughts known.

The benefit of life is learning how and when to challenge and when to suck it up because places have rules so get over it.

I was making that point about clinical and operational procedures to make it clear that I do not advocate doing things unsafely. Petty uniform rules like wearing the ‘right’ colour hair accessory? That doesn’t need challenging through official channels, it just needs ignoring like everybody does as it is clearly stupid.