MNHQ here: Parliamentary debate on authorised absence from school – an MP wants to know your views

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

Parliament's engagement team have been in touch about an upcoming debate they'd like you to contribute to: I'll let them take it from here

“Would you request authorised absence from school during term time for your child? Under what circumstances? If you have requested an absence, was it granted?"

"Steve Double MP is holding a debate on authorised absence from school on Wednesday 5 June and he wants to hear about your experiences and opinions on the topic."

"For a bit of context: in April 2017, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled against Jon Platt, a father who refused to pay a fine for taking his daughter out of school for a holiday during term-time. The judgement strengthened the controversial penalty notice system in England, under which parents may be fined for taking their child out of school without authorisation."

"Critics of the system highlight the high cost of holidays outside term-time, and the impact on tourism in the UK. The Government has maintained that ensuring school attendance is key to raising children’s attainment."

"Please reply with your views by Friday 31 May for them to be fed back to Steve Double before his debate. Alternatively, leave a comment on our Facebook page here”

Thanks
MNHQ

I’m generally of the school of thought that ‘if you don’t like it, you can home school or opt out of the system and go private.’ Education is still extremely good value for money if you calculate it as a proportion of the tax you pay, so on something like this you have to just get on with it. Funerals/weddings/extra curricular exams should be an exception.
Teachers and schools are judged (and paid) on their results, they are going to want children in as much as possible to deliver the expected results. This is a result of the corporatisation of the education system...

I don’t know where all these schools are that do nothing in the last weeks of term! We have normal weeks, with the normal timetable except for the last afternoon. We still aren’t allowed to put a film on. Just in an ordinary state primary...

I’m a parent and a teacher

1. ofsted need to stop penalising schools for absences of children- often it is particular families often with more than one child, that largely impact on attendance rates. This is a social problem, not the schools fault. Fix the social problems- poor parenting, neglect, lack of money, unemployment, families having 6+ kids they don’t give a damn about let alone have any inclination to work to support etc
   This has nothing to do with holidays but impacts school attendance rates thus if this issue was lessened then the impact of term time holidays on attendance rates wouldn’t be so significant.

2. tour operators and such should be penalised for higher prices in school holidays- I haven’t afforded a holiday with my 2 girls for 5 years as the prices are ridiculous and as a teacher I can’t have time off in term time when I would stand a better chance of affording one. It affects our well being in a major way.
   I do not think anyone should be able to take their kids out of school just for a holiday.
   Destination weddings of relatives are self indulgent and by booking a destination wedding in term time, the bride and groom are basically saying they don’t care about having kids there or not. Education is more important than this. So no, children shouldn’t be able to have holidays in term times.
   Funerals are far more tricky as I agree it is not the role of the head to decide who should be able to attend whose funeral.

I know families that have extra weeks off for holidays every year and have never been fined- where is the consistancy?!!!

Also I agree with a PP- we have normanteaching days/weeks right up to the hour before home time on the last days of each term- the kids would be feral by the last day if we went off teaching timetables before that! Plus my head would probably sack us!

One I meant NORMAL not norman teaching days/weeks!!

Children should have 5 'free' days a year. There parents accrue holiday entitlement and so should school children. We are not yet prisoners of the state.

This

Destination weddings of relatives are self indulgent

Only if you assume that everybody has relatives who live solely locally.

Is it really indulgent for my brother, who has lived his whole life in Australia, to marry another Australian and not arrange to do it in UK term times, or in the UK to accommodate his only sister and neices and nephews? (Not that my brother ever got married, but note the assumptions behind the post).

We have asked permission to miss a week of school for a family holiday. Of course it wasn't authorised.
We still went.
DC has excellent school attendance. Is not top of the class nor bottom of the class. DC was asked to keep a diary of the trip which DC then presented back to the class the following week.

The trip (& subsequent "show n tell" to classmates) was fantastic for confidence and foreign language skills.
As a family it was fantastic. A break. A reminder that we can all get on when there are no day to day stresses present.

A trip we would not have afforded for many year's if we had to take it during school holidays. In fact we haven't had a proper holiday for more than 3 years so this was really needed.

Not much Learning was missed that was not caught up on (we are in the lower half of Primary school).

All in all we will do that again whilst in primary school.

I don't blame holiday companies. At the end of the day we live in a capitalist society. Hence our 1 week would have cost £3k more for a family of 4 in school holidays and thus putting it out of our reach right now.

However there are lots of kids at the school with family overseas so they usually miss a few days at the start / end of term at least once in the school year so I don't mind taking my own DC out for a week.

The HT should have discretion to decide whether to grant permission to take a week out for a holiday - particularly where a child has good attendance. Of course if families take the Michael then they should be reported and fined but my guess is there would be very few.

For a funeral or other family event of a day or 2 there should be an assumption that if the child has good attendance then the parent can decide to take their child out and only have to notify the school in advance.

Parents should be treated as knowing what is best for their kids and their family life, until proved otherwise - in which case social services should be involved and the decision re family holidays in term time is made by them and not by the HT.

The state should not act as a nanny, unless a family is failing to ensure their DC are attending school for a sufficient number of days per year. Ie c90% excl illness.

Given schools close for all sorts of reasons I don't see why allowing parents to make these decisions is such a thorny issue.

DS is not going on the school trip to London in the last week of term.
I am not going to send him to school because he will not have a class to go to ( they're in London and their Teacher will also there).
So he might as well be at home.

I think 2 week half terms, with different regions on different dates would solve a lot of unauthorised absence. I liked one posters idea if loosing a week of the summer break but letting people book 5 days of their choice off. I would include teachers in this, it would be a great retention strategy.

Yes, I have been fined before.

If you live in Australia and you have your wedding in Australia, it’s not a destination wedding?!
But if they haven’t factored in the school term dates for the nieces and nephews they are apparently besotted with, then yes, it is self indulgent to expect everyone with children to be able to attend! Same as anyone having a wedding anywhere-this country or otherwise- on a weekday/during term time.
Gosh some people really do like to argue don’t they?!

The obsession with schools attendance has seen the most normal conscientious families be treat almost like criminals. Despite having perfect attendance I was called to a meeting with an attendance officer. I've never known such bull in all the years my children were at school. Despite knowing us as a family that had brilliant attendance in all years but one, the big brother attendance police took over. Not content with evidence, I was told to have a form stamped by a doctor any time she was off and told we it would be good for me when I wanted her tonsils out! Why would I want them out, unless vital? To tick the school attendance box ?

My other daughter, marked out gifted and talented, was pushed out of sixth form for poor attendance. Although having a long term medical condition and doing better throughout school on attendance, grades and achievements and behaviour, did eventually crumble a bit in sixth form; realising that she was an early 18, school wanted her out. She had to restart in college the following September, but completed 2 years in one , showing that without that pressure.

We have never had a holiday in term time since attendance police took over, but to hell with it now; if we are to be treat like criminals, questioned in depth, raising anxiety that does not need to be there, save a grand as school holidays are a no go financially for us, we will bloody take one anyways.

With all the cut backs, schools should be able to focus on pupil well-being. The anxiety on teachers is inevitably passed directly to students. No one disagrees with schools maintaining focus on serial absentees- it just should not come from an Ofsted statistical angle, but for genuine welfare.

Oh and recently a child who was skiving school and at risk of exploitation has been permanently excluded from secondary school mainly due to skiving and refusing to stay in the building. Her mother says , she was advised that the 15 year old there can be home schooled. The mother said, they filled a couple of workbooks in themselves, of course they're not and won't be home schooling her! Focus on that, government.

so glad i got out of the broken education system in 2015,best thing i ever did was to learn that home education existed

there is a article on google that explains the amount of time a child actually learns in a school day and its not a lot so the argument that a child misses out on 5 days of learning when on holiday is not true

schools has way to much control on your home life and parents dont realize there is another way to go about things in HE,school is actually the default

kids are not even allowed to be ill anymore the stupid letter my neighbor got on what illness was acceptable to be off or not was ridiculous

unless your body part is falling off or your hospitalized they expect you in

as a parent if you want to take yourchild out then you should the child is not the school or las property

The current obsession with attendance is not about children’s education but box ticking to meet ofsted stats.
My dd has 100% attendance. I am taking her out for a week in July as older dd can’t have any time off during the summer hols (or any other holidays this year) so it’s the only way we could go away as a family.
The system of fines is actually more expensive to administer than the money it raises. To me it’s just a pointless pen pushing excercise. The poorest school, who often have the most challenges as many families with complex needs get penalised for things which are out of their control.
The previous system of HT’s discretion was fine and didn’t need fixing.

I've not requested authorised absences, but I have helped several friends write to school to make requests. One who’s father had passed away in another country and she had to fly out to make funeral arrangements, she couldn’t leave her children behind as her dh worked away.

Our school refuses to authorise absences for holidays so parents simply lie.

I can see asking for permission to take dc away and to be honest I think it’s important for dc to have family time away together.

If students are away, it should be the recognisance of the parents, i.e. conferring NO obligation on teachers to make up the missed lessons. Or to require work in advance.

I think it's wrong that the penalty only applies to children in state schools. Though who home school or pay for private schools aren't punished in this way. Given it can lead to a criminal conviction it's very wrong. It makes state school parents liable for a criminal offence that private school parents are not. As a generalisation this discriminates against those who can't afford private education, the less well off. Why should less well off people be liable for a criminal offence that thief richer peers are not.

Though who home school or pay for private schools aren't punished in this way. Given it can lead to a criminal conviction it's very wrong.

Not at all. I am no fan of the private school system, but what are they paying for? The right to opt out of state oversight of their child’s education. The state can’t have it both ways. Private schools are private, or they need to ban private schools and force all parents into the state system, with all its inadequacies.

So many good points made here. I do hope they are carefully considered in this debate. I work in a school and see many parents who take their children out not put off in the slightest by the fines. They are NOT working. Attitude of parents generally is that is is much cheaper to just book term time and pay a fine. Parents who have always taken their kids out (before the introduction of fines) have not changed their habits so fines seem pointless.
Agree that there needs to be more consistency from school to school and work towards a reasonable, fair and more flexible system.
The bigger question is to consider what can be done to reduce price hikes.. look at what they do in other countries.
Also the schools are put in a difficult position when OFSTED puts a huge emphasis on attendance and results.
Teachers also struggle with these price hikes and cannot afford their holidays in peak season - can more companies offer teacher discounts (I have heard of one company offering this)

For me it's not so much about holidays but other reasons for absence like funerals, illness, hospital appointments where schools decide it's unauthorised or demand GP notes etc

Also the fact that there's no real right of appeal, you have to go to court to argue your case. There should be some sort of oversight between the Head and the courts.

Some parents work in industries that preclude going away during school holidays.
The current pressure on attendance has had a huge negative impact in terms of pressure on very young children. They are worried about missing school when they are ill. It has also caused parents to send in children who are unwell which spreads more illness and causes more children to be absent.
Yes, good attendance is important but the current situation is ridiculous.
The state doesn't own our children; and they learn valuable things by seeing new places / cultures.

I absolutely hate the current attendance policy. I think children should be allowed 10 days a year ‘off’ for day trips or a cheaper holiday. I resent being told what I can do with my own children and paying the huge cost of school holiday prices. To answer your question though I have never taken them out of school for a trip or a holiday.

The real reasons I hate it though are far more serious and most have been mentioned already. They include:-

Children with additional needs who would not manage a busy holiday but might thrive in a holiday in term time when it is quieter.

Parents who can only get term time leave so lose any chance of a family holiday.

The obsession with attendance meaning unwell children come into school and spread infection and / or get more unwell. I have seen children with asthma stagger into school who really should be at home but who have been warned about attendance. Madness.

It is simply unfair that it is ok for schools or the government to not provide enough school places by refusing to build more schools, not tackle bullying or SEN provision which all impact children’s attendance.

100% attendance certificates / prizes that are simply unfair.

As an NHS worker, the additional strain placed on departments with parents feeling obliged to phone them requesting a change to their school hours appointment. Err, no. Clinics are fully booked and organised around clinical need, not Ofsted. Usually the parents are apologetic and say they are only ringing so they can tell school they tried to change the appointment. What a waste of everyone’s time.

My personal favourite is the issue this then leads to of needing a doctor’s note for missing school. The BMA have released a statement here about it.

Children with very low attendance for non health related issues is a separate issue and not going to be solved by insisting in 209% attendance.

Clearly I meant 100% attendance but perhaps schools will start aiming for 209% when the government decides even 100% is not enough .

As a trained secondary science teacher for over 12 yrs I see school attendance as vital. However, I totally agree concessions should be made for unavoidable absence. There is a clear link between educational success and attendance at school. However, I am equally keen to promote peripatetic education and do believe that there is a place in education for personal development through travel, something which I personally think is invaluable and teaches youngster values that can’t be experienced in the classroom.

I think that as long as the child’s attendance is otherwise good, it should be granted. My kids have had 100 per cent attendance for years. It’s nuts to say that a week off skiing would make any difference to their education. It’s nanny state gone mad. I can choose to home educate my child so they have no school education at all, but I can’t take a term time holiday?

I completely understand that the rules are designed to protect kids who might otherwise be at risk of educational disruption from low attendance. But things have gone further than that and stop families choosing to go away in term time for all manner of good reason: cost, syncing with family abroad or in different LAs, work patterns etc. Schools should be given the discretion to say yes to term time holidays to parents whose kids attend regularly and are academically on target.