MNHQ here: Parliamentary debate on authorised absence from school – an MP wants to know your views

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

Parliament's engagement team have been in touch about an upcoming debate they'd like you to contribute to: I'll let them take it from here

“Would you request authorised absence from school during term time for your child? Under what circumstances? If you have requested an absence, was it granted?"

"Steve Double MP is holding a debate on authorised absence from school on Wednesday 5 June and he wants to hear about your experiences and opinions on the topic."

"For a bit of context: in April 2017, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled against Jon Platt, a father who refused to pay a fine for taking his daughter out of school for a holiday during term-time. The judgement strengthened the controversial penalty notice system in England, under which parents may be fined for taking their child out of school without authorisation."

"Critics of the system highlight the high cost of holidays outside term-time, and the impact on tourism in the UK. The Government has maintained that ensuring school attendance is key to raising children’s attainment."

"Please reply with your views by Friday 31 May for them to be fed back to Steve Double before his debate. Alternatively, leave a comment on our Facebook page here”

Thanks
MNHQ

They happily shut the school when the teachers strike.

Not really. They can’t open without teachers.

At the teacher’s discretion I think it should be allowed. Maybe only a max of one or two weeks per year perhaps?

I think the point made by somebody upthread is also important. This disproportionately impacts those of us who are immigrants, and especially if the family is from very far away. In my case, my parents are in Australia (my husband is British, so if we had moved to Australia, we would have had the problem the other way), and it basically takes two days travel each way. In our case the constraint has been that we couldn't travel with my child with the life limiting condition, and we couldn't get respite for him during school holidays for longer than a week, because there is pressure on the respite system, and everybody wants it during school holidays. When my other kids were small, my parents used to come to the UK and stay with us for a month, so my kids knew their grandparents. However they are not well enough to travel anymore, so we can't see them. Of course, this might be filed under making Britain an uncomfortable place for immigrants policy. Clearly fewer of these issues if you marry British for n generations.

It’s all about moderation surely. If you have a child taking a couple of extra weeks of holidays every year then that’s obviously going to have an impact, but if it’s once in 5 years then I can’t see it’s a problem.

It should be up to the HT’s discretion; to look at the pupils attendance, previous out of term absences, reasons etc.

It should be up to the HT’s discretion; to look at the pupils attendance, previous out of term absences, reasons etc.

Unfortunately, a great many people seem to misunderstand the term “discretion”. They get told no and they start arguing, complaining that 92% isn’t that different from 94% (which it isn’t - it’s the HT using their discretion), or that it isn’t consistent because the HT let X child go to Florida and now won’t let Y child go to Miami (even though X child had 100% attendance last year and Y child had 82); well, no, it isn’t consistent - it’s discretionary.

They only want “discretion” when it means they get their own way. If they don’t, they cry “inconsistency”.

I think the fines are ridiculous and I say that as a school governor.

I have always taken the approach of telling the school when DS is going to be off, and it's up to them if they authorise it or not - in the parent and I wouldn't be changing my mind just because the HT said no.

Examples of where we have had leave authorised include his great grandparents funeral.

Those not authorised involved a holiday 2 days before the end of term, as we'd booked it so far in advance that the school dates weren't published and we'd had to hedge our bets. Also not authorised was a rehearsal for a dance show (he was only year 1).

I get why HT don't like having more discretion as some parents are total piss takers. What I do think is odd though is the focus on the holiday absence rather than those that get called in sick one day every other week. I think that is much more damaging but the 'holiday parent' is easier to challenge.

I honestly don’t know how you all put up with this nonsense (I’m in Scotland). They can’t be arsed to open the school on a Friday afternoon here and from what I can gather school on a Friday mornings a waste of time so they’d have a cheek telling us no! I’ve never taken my son out of school for a holiday but I bloody would if I wanted to. As for asking for permission to go to a funeral...they’d be told to fuck right off. They’d be told my sons going and that would be end of it!

I think the English system is bonkers! I’m in Scotland and parents don’t take the piss by having kids out of school willy-nilly. Are English parents really so different that the state needs to impose such nonsense?

I had to take my kids out of school for a few days this year to attend the wedding of English based family members. There was no issues with our school. The threads you see on here about the difficulties parents have in taking their kids to funerals, music exams etc are mind boggling.

By all means there should be intervention if attendance drops below a sensible level, as it is a welfare issue, but anything else is just a nanny state!

Also do the powers that be realise nowadays schools seem to do NOTHING in the last couple of days of term, especially Christmas. It’s not like when I was wee and we were allowed to watch a video in the last afternoon if we did work and tided the classroom in the morning.

I feel that as long as the absence is explained to the teachers and work books followed if needed (say a 3 week trip to Australia or something) then it should be fine.

Obviously if it's just before or over exam periods of key tests then it wouldn't make sense to take a child out and I'm sure most parents wouldn't do this.

However I think trips as a family can be very valuable and some are just it possible to take in term time.

As with most things a sensible approach and working with teachers should mean these are possible.

Many trips all have lots of natural built in learning opportunities, not just geography and wildlife but languages, maths (currency exchange etc) and cultural.

We requested a holiday twice and it was authorised.
The first time was a single day at the end of term when we were taking our (adopted) children to their home country. The single day made no real difference to the holiday but a big difference to the price. The HT was happy.

The second time was a very middle class problem - going skiing. But bear with me. I can't take holiday in school half terms due to my job, and my DS has quite bad motor control problems - we're waiting for assessment for dyspraxia. He does, however, do well at skating and skiing compared to his other motor skills and they are good for his confidence and to help his balance. We asked for a week off the first week back in January of his Y1, and it was approved. We'd been before in term time when he was in Reception but under compulsory school age in that case.

The HT says she's happy in exceptional circumstances (which can include work issues and SEN) to approve holidays at the beginning or end of term as these are much less disruptive than the middle of term.

I think if the school (the class teacher and the HT) are happy and if it's for a good reason (e.g. one visit to family a long way away during a child's primary school career, funeral, special skills training for a child with high level sports ability/drama/SEN) then it should be allowed.

Just for a cheap week in the sun, no. We probably won't take DS out of school in term time again to go skiing (I can take AL at Easter but it's only worth going if Easter is relatively early so we'll stick to those years).

(I should add that DS' attendance has been 100% apart from a few missed registrations due to routine hospital appointments that fell over morning or afternoon registration. I'm sure this helped).

I completely disagree with the current policy, because as a point of principle I believe it should be up to parents to decide.

This. Do our children belong to us, or the state? Barring abuse and failing to provide any kind of education, it should be for parents to decide.

I ended up home educating my children (after a few years in school) and got free of all this nonsense. They had much, much more free time than their schooled counterparts. It made us realise just how inefficient school can be and how much time is wasted. Despite a childhood filled with fun, holidays, trips, and a huge proportion spent playing with friends, both got fantastic GCSEs and the youngest is currently at uni doing a Physics degree.

Attendance has importance, but so do many other things such as value placed on education, parental support, how time in school is spent and the whims of the current curriculum. This over-focus on never being allowed time out seems to be more about the nanny state than anything meaningful.

@MrsAmaretto

Also do the powers that be realise nowadays schools seem to do NOTHING in the last couple of days of term, especially Christmas.

That may be the case in some schools, or even all schools in Scotland, I don't know. But I can sure you that is not the case in the school where I work. We have normal lessons up to the day before we break up. The last day of term is usually spent clearing the room, taking down displays etc and then a choice of activity in the afternoon - we have several classes per year so each room has a different activity and children can choose which one they want to do. At half term, we work a normal day on the last day.
As for closing for elections - we are told to close. Staff have actually worked the last few election days, but we cannot have our pupils in as we cannot close off the area that is used for voting.
On the rare occasions we close for snow, it's for safety reasons, not so we can have a jolly. The point about whole school closures is, however, moot, as a whole school closure does not entail anyone in having to catch up work they've missed but which everybody else has done.

I have requested time off for my son to complete IDTA dance exams. They are proper qualifications and are regulated by Ofqual.

I had the absence approved but it felt like it was given begrudgingly when I spoke verbally to the headteacher. I've also heard similar attitude from other local primary schools.

With the arts being cut in schools, it's imperative to me my son has access to the arts out of school. I expect through the years I will be requesting a couple of absences per year for dance/instrument exams.

They are educationally enriching and there should be no reason why they should ever be refused. Giving clearer guidance to head teachers is vital.

It should be at the HT's discretion and based on attendance. Only the Head of each school can really make a balanced decision whether to grant it or not as they know their children and their families. There's a big difference between little Freddy, who's off a lot, going to Benidorn for a week and another child, with 100% attendance, having a day off to attend her grandmother's funeral! And only the Head would know which families are genuine and which children would benefit from an agreed absence.

I took my son out for a week in January 2018 for a family holiday, we had an amazing time and he didn't really miss anything. I spoke to his teacher on his return and he said that there wasn't anything for him to catch up on. He was in Year 4. We all got so much more out of that week then we would have if he had been at school, prices of holidays in school holidays are a joke and if I want to take him out then I will. Next year is year 6 so we have sats and I wouldn't dream of doing it then and the same goes for once he is in secondary school. We didn't have a letter from the school for the weeks absence or a fine so I would do it again.

The school was shut last Thursday for polling day, why do that when there are so many churches/halls etc 🤷‍♀️

Many families want a few days at end of a term so they can get considerably cheaper flights or need a couple of days for a family occasion. In my experience, at Christmas the children spend at least a week colouring, playing games or watching DVDs. The same applies to the week leading up to Easter and the summer term. I don’t have a problem with this as it balances the academic with some much needed fun. However, why should parents be made to feel bad for taking children out of school at this time of their attendance hasn’t been excellent? What education are they seriously missing out on? I think there needs to be some common sense leeway, particularly for those whose children have good regular attendance.

I think a better balance needs to be struck. There are parents who would merrily take their children out of school at the drop of a hat. It's the children who have the lowest attainment that need support here. However we must treat everyone equally. At our school I know several parents in my daughters class who regularly take their children on holiday or for long weekends - circa 10-15 days a year. So far we have done 5 days each year (and although she has had a couple of days for hospital appointments she's not been off sick, but that's luck). We take her out in the summer term for 5 days for a UK holiday. It's the only time we can go away during the whole year. We don't even go away at weekends because we can't afford it. If we didn't go in term time then we wouldn't go at all ever. Is it really so terrible to take a child out of school for 5 days a year who would otherwise never have the opportunity to go on holiday. It's not abroad but she's getting the chance to go away and enjoy herself - go to the beach, build a sandcastle and experience what her friends do. I certainly wouldn't want her to go through the cruelty of "why aren't you going on holiday?" from her peers and growing up feeling like she's missing out.

Cheaper holidays aren't the only reason though. Some employers dictate annual leave to their staff and often for good reason. My friends husband is not allowed holiday during school holidays at all as that is when his job is most required. So on that basis if she didn't take her children out of school then they wouldn't get a family holiday either.

I'm starting a business just before the summer holidays and won't be able to take time off straight away so we're going away at the end of June or else we wouldn't get a holiday (that and the fact that we can't afford to go away in the school holidays).

It's not always about people being frivolous. Holidays aren't a necessity but life is a damn sight nicer with them.

I personally feel if my child's has high attendance why can I not take them on holiday. My eldest has missed one day all year and we go away in 2 weeks time. He will miss 6 days. Schools can refuse a child entry for 48 hours after 1 bout of sickness. I will probably get a fine as school will not authorise the absence but for the second year running I am unable to get any holiday from work during the school holidays so this is our only option. The other thing that takes the biscuit us the very same school asking me to pay £1005 for them to take my child skiing in Austria next year during term time for one week. Why can they take my child away at my expense yet I cannot take my child on a family holiday to France which is actually going to help him learn French and about currency which is on his high school curriculum costing me less than half the school trip he is not going on but will fine me for furthering his education. My child will learn more on a family trip to France than skiing. Many of these school trips result in the kids underage drinking as the number of kids to adults is low. My children will be supervised, learning about French history visiting things like Notre Dame.

For DCs who do things like Music/Dance/ Sports events the school is able to put a particular registration mark known as " Educated off site" DD2 was authorised this a number of times for taking part in drama and music events/ exams. Head teachers should not be marking these as unauthorised! They are easy to prove with letters and e mails stating the date and time of such events. (Would have been especially daft as her music lessons were on site at the school she attended!)

As for holidays- as a teacher it is a total pain where a child misses a chunk of learning but at the very end of a term ( especially Christmas) or after SATS for year 6... 🤷‍♀️

Yes.
Circumstances have varied over the years and have included half a day for the funeral of a very close family friend (who was a parent at the school and the headteacher attended along with some of the staff), a day for teenager to perform with a music organisation at a Government event (with LA performance licence in place), five days for teenager to perform music overseas with music organisation, three days for 7-yr-old to film an advert overseas (with overseas performance licence in place), two days at the end of term for 9-yr-old to attend residential music course that is the only one of its kind and only clashed with term dates because the school had some something odd with them that year.

On each of those occasions, the schools they attend have authorised their absence. Sometimes it's recorded as being exceptional circumstances and on other occasions I've not asked which code has been used. As DH and I are both teachers ourselves, we're not going to be taking our children on holiday in term time any time soon but I am glad our children have headteachers who've felt able to authorise their absence when requested. We are lucky in that they rarely get ill so have excellent attendance generally.

As a primary teacher, I have no issue with children from my class having a week off school for a holiday provided the parents don't expect me to provide work for them to take and don't expect me to find time for their child to finish a particular project. It's a real pain when children miss the start of the term in September so I would be in favour of families being discouraged from holidays then (maybe holiday companies could hike that week's prices up so everyone was in school at the start of the year ) but I don't mind about the other weeks as it's not as unsettling for the children.

I don't see the point of fining families unless the revenue generated is going to be given back to the individual schools to buy Pritt sticks.

I think it should be taken on each child’s attendance as an individual. You know the kids who are never in school for one dubious reason or another. Holidays are an education and should be seen as such. The amount of time my children spend towards the end of term or before a parents evening watching a movie whilst the teachers are doing other stuff would certainly add up throughout the year!

We live about 150 miles from my family. Any family event is dictated by term time. We went to my nieces christening a few months ago and the school refused to authorise absence for my kids for one day so we could travel the day before at a reasonable time rather than after school and they could spend a bit of extra time with their grandparents. 2 weeks in term time for a holiday? Fair enough, don't authorise but not allowing any leeway for family events is ridiculous.

We regularly request leave for our DS so that he can compete in his sport for which he is a world record holder for. Some of the events take place overseas and during term time. This requires time off from classes - he is graded for 7-9 in all subjects with minimal effort. For foreign languages, philosophy & ethics and geography travelling overseas has improved his grading . Therefore it is not based on his educational needs.

Additionally there does not appear to be any consistency as to if he will be granted authorisation to take part in the events - this makes planning very difficult. Do we book tickets only to be told that he cannot be taken out of school, giving us the choice of losing the fare price, facing custodial sentences as advocated by our county council ( not the school who are very supportive) or ditching our son's aspirations to become the best in the world at his chosen sport?

I can recognise the argument of disrupting the class when there is no demonstrable circumstances for the leave being taken at a different time eg a holiday that will be there 2 weeks later, but where children are attending an event - sporting, family or other then it seems unreasonable that parents are unable to make choices for their children. In these circumstances dogma limits the aspirations of the child and the state's aspiration trumps the individual even where that model is of no benefit. The cynic in me feels that it is driven by the school's need to count him in for grades but out for attendance.

I'd also look at encouraging schools to think more creatively around term dates. For example, a school I have worked with has a majority of students from a particular country where the preferred time for family visits is around Easter--it's too hot in the summer. Parents would go anyway, so the school lengthened Easter holidays and shortened summer holidays (appreciating this might be hard for teachers with kids in other schools).

Another strategy is to put all the inset days in one week, so this can be used for cheaper holidays.

In general I think it's very tough for schools as there are always families where attendance is poor and heads will end up in endless negotiations with parents. A lot of the arguments on the 'educational' aspects are also loaded with class based assumptions about what is valuable - who says a week in Greece is more educational than a week at Butlins?

We did take DD out for a week in reception- but didn't ask for authorisation - I probably wouldn't do it again but I don't think it's the end of the world to miss a week of school, in principle. The issue is that schools are under such huge pressure to move kids rapidly through the curriculum it's very difficult if, for example 50% of kids have missed a different week of maths each and they have the MAT breathing down their neck on progress. Perhaps the MP in question should be asking questions of DFE on performance measures and the incentives they set up as a first issue?