Grammar or Private School for Oxbridge

[londonmummy4]

I wonder if you lovely ladies or gentleman can help me in my dilemma. My DS has won a place at a very amazing grammar school and a top private school. It is driving me crazy because everyone has an opinion on what we should do. We have no endless trust fund to help our 4 kids and who knows what the political landscape will be in the future. I'm inclined to go with the private school because I never went to one and I think it will be an amazing opportunity. But I am being told by various people that to get into Oxbridge in 5 or 7 years time for the private school students it will be a lot harder. I don't want to play that game. I don't care about Oxbridge. I think the journey and end result will be better at private school for our kids. Am I wrong in thinking this?

“ A selective grammar is academically better than a private school IMO (as they select by ability not wealth!) ”

That really is rubbish on many levels!

It sounds like academically the schools would be more or less equally great. I doubt there will be much difference between a top grammar and a top private school in terms of teaching and learning.

What about the range of subjects on offer? The length of lessons? The extra-curricular opportunities? Options of IB vs A level?

Speaking of extra-curricular, would you be able to afford school trips and so on on top of the private school fees?

If, down the line, he wants to apply for Oxbridge then you could look into the current stats of applicants and admissions for different colleges to decide where he might have the best chance; but from what I’ve seen of Admissions (Oxford) if he is an academically strong candidate there wouldn’t be much difference in his chances, (there’s always still an element of chance and potential error of judgement). He wouldn’t be granted any concessions at interview or for results having been at a top Grammar — they don’t take that into account in the same way they would if he had been to a comprehensive with historically poor results in a deprived area.

Do enlighten me, Bertrand.

DS is at a London Independent and has an Oxbridge offer (currently revising hard for his A Levels).

His school usually receive 18 offers but this year they were down to 12, quite possibly due to the pressure Oxbridge are under to bring in more students from the state sector. I believe other independents have experienced similar reductions.

I have no idea whether this trend will continue and a lot can change in seven years.

Our experience of the independent sector has been hugely positive one with many opportunities. Having attended a state primary with children from disadvantage backgrounds he feels he has the ability to connect with anyone and everyone.

The London Grammars are very different to the London Independents. Contrary to other parts of the country, the London Independents can actually be more diverse than the London Grammars, both culturally and socially.

@AnotherEmma academically top public schools are highly academically selective. They have highly competitive and academically challenging entrance exams too.

(A lot also have big enough endowments to offer proportional bursaries to more than just a token number of academically able children whose families cannot afford all or any of the fees)

Emma you do know you have to pass an entrance exam for private schools? So they most certainly do select by academic ability.

If you can afford it for all I would go private - as someone pointed out on another thread a grammar is still a state and thus subject to fluctuations in funding. A lot of London schools have seen their funding plummet recently.

But the main thing is which did you and your DS prefer?

For some independent schools there is an entrance exam, for others there is not. The ops school does have academic selection bit that doesn't follow willow that all do. There are plenty independent schools for the less academic.

Sorry, yes I do know that private schools have entrance exams. But there will only be a limited number of students who can get bursaries and scholarships. So you can't pretend that wealth isn't a factor at all.

I went to private school for a bit and it certainly wasn't full of geniuses I realise my experience is very limited though. And I am ideologically biased against private schools tbh.

"Your DS will not be receiving a contextual offer whilst studying at the likes of QEB or Latymer or St Olave's or Tiffin or any other London grammar. "

Possibly bizarrely, that may not necessarily be true, if the contextualisation leads to offers which are based only on home address postcode. I know most contextualisation schemes do not, but have a feeling some may.

I'd say the one thing it may be worth looking 'forward' to when choosing a school is the GCSE options. If there are significant differences in those, then than could be worth taking into account. Though even then these things have a habit of changing in schools during the three years before you reach Yr 10! So if both schools are ok, just go where you think ds will be happiest - unless the financial pressure will have an impact on his and the rest of the family's wellbeing. If one of the adults is expressing concern about the money then I would think carefully before committing yourself to 7 yrs of school fees (and if all 4 are going to be there at the same time, well, that's quite a significant sum.)

Hi @AnotherEmma. Yes fair enough regarding ideology. How did you find your school? I went to an academic hothouse of a private school on a bursary; I think there is a big range of academic levels when it comes to private school — probably more so than with grammars.

I am a teacher and actually feel a lot of grammar schools and state sixth-form colleges are in effect academically selective too. The 11 plus to get into grammar school is already out of reach for so many children because of their background and learning to date, and when you look at the demographics of some grammar schools compared to private schools with more than a token number of bursaries, there isn’t really a difference. It’s an issue...

Unless you have a spare £500k to burn I wouldn’t start down the private path for 4 kids.

State. You need to be completely nuts to put your husband in the position of trying to put 4 children through private school. Presumably you’re talking about QEB Vs HAbs or similar. 4 kids a year in private secondary is circa £100k per year, you need to earn £160k just to pay the fees. You’re absolutely nuts to even consider this if the fees will be a stretch. The outcomes will be almost identical.

I didn't enjoy it, when we relocated I asked to go to a "normal" school
It was a girls' school which felt unnatural to me, I felt the "odd one out" because I had a bursary and scholarship, and I had a couple of friends but didn't really fit in. Some of the girls were completely obsessed with horses which I found very strange
I realise of course that some children thrive in single-sex and/or private schools. But it wasn't for me and I wouldn't choose it for my children unless it was the only decent option.

Last post was to Crunchy

Private schools all select on wealth. There are scholarships and bursaries but very few that make more than a dent in the fees. It is vanishingly unlikely that a “properly poor” child would get in regardless of academic ability. Many private schools are also extremely academically selective- so a double whammy!

Grammar schools are academically selective, but also covertly select on wealth as well.

But this isn’t answering the OP’s question!

Grammar school. We moved from independent to grammar earlier this year and it's a no brainer!

Its morally abhorrent to "hang onto" the state grammar place whilst you fret and froth about a private school option.

Let it go so someone more deserving can take up the place.

Contextual offers are not for state school kids. They are for kids who go to failing schools with little history of sending students to University. Or for being in care or living in a very deprived area. The vast majority of state school students still get the same offers as private schools. And amazingly achieve them !! My DDs 6th form college, which is huge and classes all had 20+ in them, got many to Oxbridge, Vet & Medical. But also many to art school, fashion colleges, drama schools and every other future the kids wanted. You don't know what your kids will be and Oxbridge is not the future a lot of people want (my DD hated the medic courses as you don't see a patient in first few years). Don't try and 'play the system' by going state as it won't work.

If you have enough funds to treat all of your children to private education, then choose between these two schools based on what they offer - the private school may well win.

If you do not have sufficient funds, choose the grammar.

Whichever one you choose, make sure your DS gets the impression that you his new school is the very best and is a better fit for him than the school you don't choose.

With 4 children, unless you are seriously well off, you will really feel the pinch of 4 sets of school fees and all the considerable ancillary costs. If there's any doubt you'll be able to do the same for all the children, I would take the grammar place. You can always transfer him to a private school at 13+ if you regret your choice.

You can always transfer him to a private school at 13+ if you regret your choice

This is the kind of selfish behaviour that is atrocious. What about the state kid that lost out on this place aged 11, who's parents can't afford a private option? And it's naïve to say there will be a space for them at the school at age 13.

What mumsneedwine said. You have three problems OP

You don’t understand how contextualised offers work.

You are not taking account of what your DS wants now and what he may want at 18.

You can’t afford private for all your kids.

@Taffeta that's not true at all. A lot of boys private schools have an intake and / or their main intake at 13+. And why shouldn't the op take up the place and then move on if it's not right for her son? Your outrage is misplaced. It doesn't sound like she can afford 4 sets of school fees. And she pays tax so entitled to free education. People move. People leave schools.

I agree with Applesbananaspears re the cost of putting 4 children through London private school, it will be an enormous strain on you, the pressure of having to continually earn can be very negative.
We have put 2 through private for secondary school and it’s been a constant drain, there has always been things to pay for, trips, clubs, exam fee, etc etc
If your DC has secured a place at a top London grammar school, he will get an excellent education in a very competitive hard working environment, I know several children from QEB, Latymer etc
As far as I know (my DC are currently applying to uni) a top London grammar school will not get contextualise offers, and where you live ie. probably a nice bit of London is unlikely to give contextualised offer either.
You can look at that information up.
I know nothing about Oxbridge though or how they are getting more state school children, I’m just talking about other universities.
Good luck with your choice OP

Let it go so someone more deserving can take up the place

What do you mean by ‘more deserving’?