A bright child is a bullied child in state schools!!!!!!!

[TenaLady]

Your thoughts please. I just find it incredible that if a child is bright either in primary or secondary school they seem to be penalised by their peers.

Is it jealousy, what is it that makes these children that want to get on and enjoy their education such a target?

I know if it were my child I may consider private education where the motto is fail and you are doomed or does this behaviour also happen in private education?

You certainly need zero tolerance of it in schools but also ensure if you can your child won't be picked on. Mine never have so far and sometimes you can look at a class and see who is a sort of obvious bullying target. They don't seem to have any strength some who. You don't think if someone thumped him he'd give them a good kicking back. They exude vulnerability and seem to walk around with an unwritten "victim" sign on them. If parents can try to ensure their child isn't in that category it helps. I think my twins have a huge robustness being youngest of 5 and what they have to cope with at home from teenage siblings that in a sense protects them at school.

Xenia - do you think that robustness is born or made?

My daughter is immensely robust - but she was born that way, it was apparent from when she was a tiny thing and always on the move, never cried when hurt, so long before she had to deal with her older brothers.

IME it was the boys who were not football mad who were bullied and "accused" of being gay so getting pseudohomophobic bullying. It is more likely that the bright children aren't football mad so it seems to follow that the bright children were more at risk of bullying.

Agree about the confident bright child being able to deter the bullies, ds is like that and has been telling the potential bullies they are losers (which for some reason makes him cool)

'Expat' - ''And as long as adults fail to protect children from bullies, make them feel responsible for somehow bringing bullying behaviour on themselves and fail to punish bullying behaviour - because if your parents are unwilling to do this for you, then it's the government's responsibility to do it for you for the good of society - then we'll just keep adding to the body count. ''

I couldn't agree with you more. There is simply far too much hand -wringing over 'understanding' the bullies. Yes, some of them might be reacting to something lacking in their own lives but many have a similar upbringing to everyone else but they just like the power trip that bullying brings. There are far too many excuses made and I feel that many adults still sympathise with bullying behaviour by misinterpreting it as showing streangth of character or worse still, leadership. Just look at the language that is still bandied about - 'geek', 'nerd' 'swot' etc to describe the victims. The priority should be to help the victims by ensuring that all bullying is stamped out with effective punishment.

Here in France children are taught to defend themselves from bullies, attack etc, not to expect society/parents/teachers to intervene on their behalf.

What do you think of this?

I am sure most people here would think France is fairly backward for having that attitude and I'm glad my children are here.

Anyone with teenagers will have a different perspective from children at primary school however. Most teenagers are nasty to other teenagers at some time or another, letting or not letting someone into their group, being friends, then not friends and it can be very nasty at times. Every school in the land will have that but we do need to intervene when children are distressed by it and as parents help them to learn how to cope with it.

Some children will always be more popular than others. Even just looking at my non identical twins at 8, one is robust, great rugby player, good at sport, open, lots of friends. The other has friends but he's quirky, more shy, never been bullied however. So anna I think personality is often fairly well set at birth but having being used to brothers and sisters who push you around and call you names and learnign how to give as good as you get rather than being mummy's little only precious darling who bursts into tears if someone says something nasty ma not help you deal with the boss from hell when you're 25 in your first job.

It's a very difficult subject.

Not sure that it's backward, I think it's just another culture. Obviously it's difficult to get used to if you are used to a kinder/gentler approach, but standing up for yourself is not a bad lesson to learn IMO.

I agree, Xenia.

This whole idea of 'they need to learn to stick it out' and 'pulling them out/changing schools just teaches them to run from their problems'.

How utterly daft can you get?

It's ONE SCHOOL. In a big, wide world.

I'm one who wouldn't be alive if it weren't for getting the hell out of Dodge, so to speak.

Vote with your feet! Find out how big the world is. Get the hell out of there and try something else. 'Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm.' Thank you, Sir Churchill!

I'm the adult. I'm here to do the best I can by my children until they're old enough to hopefully do it for themselves.

If they could sort out all their problems themselves, well, then they'd be born adults.

There are many things they're unable to sort for themselves and that's why they're children and not born able to stand up and walk.

I work with two students whose parents thankfully pulled them out of secondary schools where they were badly bullied.

They're both doing well at uni now and have made good friends, have girlfriends, etc.

This wouldn't have happened had their parents not had the balls to stand up for them and not rely on 'fight back yourself' or 'give them a good kicking' lazy ass platitudes. They'd be dead.

In one case, the boy was being physically assaulted at school. If he'd have 'fought back' he probably would have been beaten or stabbed to death. As it is he suffered injuries at schools that required surgery and hospitalisation - a broken jar and a severely fractured collarbone and arm.

In the other case, the boy was self-harming and attemped suicide.

Bullying KILLS, people.

And not just the 'weak'. Attrition can wear down even the more 'robust' of people.

DS was also told to toughen up as he was too sensitive
And I joked oh yes as a woman we all know they are so many sensitive men in the world
FFS
I tok him out of school, they sure sorted it after that and got the little machismo lads under control well at least ds1 stopped being physically attacked anyway (AND FWIW this was in a very middle class well off area) and well thought of primary school.

I agree totally with Expat's last posting

Re a previous comment made by another poster:-
"I think parents need to work on "bully-proofing" their kids as far as possible and also to lean on their school to promote an active anti-bullying agenda".

I honestly do not think that some adults know how to do this. Think some schools also can be too easily manipulated by bullies.

Bullies target children who are calm, dignified, responsible and respectful, communicate easily with adults, and have a level of emotional development which is years ahead of the bully (whose level of emotional development is nearer that of a 5-year-old - or less). Targets of bullying are also non-violent, have a very low propensity to violence, and prefer to resolve conflict with dialogue. Bullies are driven by a seething inner resentment which is expressed through jealousy and envy. Bullies target children who have a higher-than-average emotional intelligence and who have high moral integrity which they're unwilling to compromise. Society, including parents and education systems, prefer children who are compliant, ie obedient, deferential, non-aggressive and quiet. This is regarded as "good behaviour" and thus indicative of a "good child" who is rewarded with approval. Children who are boisterous, ask lots of questions and who are reluctant to comply with the rules of the prevailing environment (regardless of how appropriate they are) are labelled aggressive, disruptive and defiant; this is regarded as "bad behaviour" and thus indicative of a "bad child". When a "good child" is bullied, he or she is suddenly labelled "sensitive", "passive", "timid", "meek" or "wimp". Those behaviours which formerly brought approbation are suddenly misappropriated to revile the child for their unwillingness to use violence in the face of aggression. This is especially apparent in those cases where the responsible adults are failing to fulfil their legal responsibilities for duty of care towards the child who is being bullied.

Children who are bullied are often self-reliant and independent. Their level of emotional development is such that they don't need to join gangs, form cliques, wear the "in" clothes, sport the latest gadgets, or indulge in classroom politics. The bully works hard to separate, exclude and isolate those they target, usually by threatening their victim's friends with violence.

Sensitivity is often wrongly given a negative connotation. Sensitivity is a mixture of dignity, respect, care, thoughtfulness, tolerance, dislike of violence, empathy, care and consideration for others. Anyone who is not sensitive is insensitive. Bullies are insensitive.

YOu need zero tolerance on breaches of the law - hitting etc. It's harder to deal with the more subtle stuff and peopel differ. You get women in tears because someone at work looks at their legs and they leave and claim sex discrimination and others who laugh it off. Sometimes exactly the same conduct done to one child or adult has a hugely different impact depending on the personality of that person. So it's difficult to get it right but really really bullying which is usually at it worst in secondary not primary schools every parent has an obligation to try to deal with.

It's worst of all when the child doesn't tell the parent because then the parent can't help. Very hard.

I have never understood why the same types of assault that take place in the street, state-owned property, are prosecuted but if it takes place in a schoo, also technically a state-owned space, it's not treated as the same breech of law?

Why?

That makes no sense and should NOT be tolerated at all, full stop.

Then prosecute them as juveniles if that's what they are.

one broken nose and one broken arm (upper arm bone snapped in half)
I got the police involved sure as damn it and yep they can do shag all.
Yet I am not even allowed to smack him. (I am not pro smacking just using as an analogy)
What message does that send out ti kids
Backwards in big dollops.

I think that bullying happens in every school in the land. I was far worst bullied at private schools that I was at state schools.

Also victims of bullying can be all the ranges of IQ and children with special needs often get bullied worst than bright children. To make things worst a child who is intellectually impaired may not have the communication skills to tell a teacher or parent.

Exactly, Piffle. Hence my post of Thu 05-Jul-07 23:27:01.

The message is: bullying pays. Or, at the very least, it won't be punished.

Some people up here have started successfully suing councils for failing to prosecute and provide a safe school environment after their children sustained similar injuries to your son's, Piffle.

That's about the only thing that got their attention.

I've specifically picked a very small primary with fabulous pastoral support for dd (4) who is a little different owing to her Noonan Syndrome, she has a few minor issues glasses being one.
She has been in the same preschool with all her classmates and I am hoping that for her school will be positive, the school have a good track record in protecting and nurturing vulnerable and SN children.

I always thought as ds1 was a big lad and bright he'd be able to defend himself
Boy how wrong was I.

DD is much tinier but far more able to defend herself than ds1 ever has been

isnt more common for boys to be teased for being bright tho? Just had ds's SATS results [proud emocion] however, although he did exceptionally well we were gven the marks for the year and the gender differnce is shocking. Boys attaining considerable lower levels than the girls. Also the boys behaviour in my ds's class is really quite poor with the majority. So glad we are planning on moving.

A lot of bullies were bullied themselves. Their self esteem has been smashed and they have gone on to bully other children.

Prehaps all children should be taught how to be assertive in their PHSE lessons.

Yes, but that's an excuse. Oh, they were bullied themselves so that's why they bully. Poor dears. Let's just leave them to ruin childrens' lives, kill other children, drive other children to suicide, etc.

It's like, 'Oh, she was sexually abused as a child, so somehow that mitigates her allowing that to happen to her own children.'

See, this is where we start to excuse and allow violence to continue.

And that's just as wrong.

I think a lot of the bullies where bullied by their parents, although obviously not all.

agree expat.

Expat, i have definitely seen the 'it's not a crime in school' attitude from senior teachers (and one of the reasons I left that school). It's ridiculous and completely neglectful of all the children involved.

I am a complete woolly liberal and do feel bullies need to be helped too but not by ignoring their behaviour at all.

What does it teach children if they think their violent behaviour is acceptable in school? Why are we allowing children to then go straight out, do the same behaviour and head for prison? That's not fair on them - 'well, it was ok at school'. Part of the problem with some aggressive children is trying to push so far that the adults will actually notice, so give them some decent boundaries - ie if you threaten someone, that's actually a crime and will be dealt with, and maybe they won't need to push as far as killing someone to get some attention.

I have only read the OP. I agree with this based on my ds's experience. I had to pull him out of primary school because he was bullied. If he got one question wrong in a maths test, he was mocked and ridiculed by children who mainly only got one right.

He's now in a grammar school so the issue doesn't arise. I feel sorry for children like him who live in areas where grammars don't exist.

There are some terrible cases of bullying as my children's private school at the moment.