if you could afford to go private, should you?

[tankerdale]

Sometimes I worry that we've got our priorities wrong. We've ended up in a lovely large home with high running costs, we've got some but not loads of savings, most of our 'wealth' is in our house. Income is very good on paper but month to month we only manage to save a small amount, if any. I work 2.5 days, DH is full time. We have a nice lifestyle and I guess eat out a bit but I don't think we're otherwise extravagant, don't spend much on holidays, run 1 car, don't spend loads on clothes etc.

3dc, 2 already at primary school. We live in the catchment of what is considered a very good non selective state secondary but it is massive.

As it stands we couldn't afford to put 3dc through private secondary (there's a nice one nearby). But have we got it wrong? Should we move to a more modest home and prioritise paying for their education?

Feeling a bit guilty that we're not putting them first. Dc1 seems v bright and will probably be ok anywhere, dc2 I'm not so sure about and too early to tell with dc3.

If they go to the state school and have any problems I'm going to wish we made a different choice I think.

So - in principle, if you can pay for private - should you?

I think you are quite right to be upfront about that, TurkeyDinosaurs. There is no point letting political correctness get in the way of truth: we all have ample proof of where that has got us.

I think quite often "confident" and "middle class" are used interchangeably.

Some very interesting points about the midddle classes being priced out of private education. I wonder how much this accounts for the increase in the number of state school students going to Oxbridge/Russell Group universities? So nothing to do with those universities widening the demographic of their student base and everything to do with the same people, from the same families continuing to access the best tertiary education.

Chapulteoec - the background information on whether applicants' parents did themselves attend university attempts to address that issue.

I have three first cousins (siblings) who were all state educated throughout and who all went to Oxbridge in the 1980s. All four of their grandparents had Oxbridge Firsts, and nearly all their ten aunts and uncles had Oxbridge degrees too... but in those days there was no background information collected on that.

Private schools also commonly have their pupils sit IGCSEs.

This has allowed them to swerve the ridiculousness of endless controlled assessments and course work and it now allows them to swerve the current pot of shite that is the new GCSE.

I wish I knew why Cambridge University won't accept iGCSE as proficiency in English for international applicants. GCSE, IELTS, TOEFL, CAE, CPE are all fine.

Crumbs, you mention privates not being obliged to publish particular results but my experience of private schools that we have used is that there is much much much less taking of GCSEs at different sittings compared with state schools and that just about everyone does the 7 or 8 subjects I did - 2 english, maths, 2 or 3 sciences, geog, history, a modern foreign language - often French (not something easier), and then something extra like music or drama or a second language. I have not seen private schools gaming the system with loads of early entries and avoiding hard subjects, quite the contrary.

Confidence just depends on the child. I was a very very very shy privately educated little girl. I got over that but it was so. Some of my children are less outgoing than others - inherent personality. One son at parents' evening his teacher said was so silent in school he might as well be doing a correspondence course. He is still quiet in the sixth form which must be annoying for the teacher but as he's the best in that class the teacher cannot really complain but it does show personalities differ.

We were talking yesterday about university entrance as my twins have most of their offers now and the lower grades you need for Bristol if you go to a bottom 40% school. They think the Catholic sixth form college very near their school they could have gone to would not have helped as it's probably in the top 60% (although going there would have saved me £15k+ per twin per year so at least £60k over the 2 years).

I think we have been spared some exam changes and experiments in the private system but we still have to follow most of the changes eg although my boys did iGCSE in most subjects, not GCSE they have been caught in the change from the old to the new A level system just like children in the state schools. Their school (and the twins) did do 4 AS levels last year and I am glad about that even though some of them do not form part of the A2 score under the new system which is a bit frustrating for my boys and many other children across the UK in both sectors).

In my experience there are actually more families in independent with just one income and less of the 2 working parents.
In the past there were lots of 2 professional parents, but increasingly see families where the father (usually) is an extremely high earning person, usually in finance and the mum (usually) stays at home....looking after the big house (which is in an expensive area) and managing the children's extra curricular etc. I notice that at Secondary, the children of an family often go to different schools, selected to be just right for the individual child, which creates even more driving round for the SAHP. Amongst these groups who have the big houses, and independent education and can still keep a parent at home (plus cleaners, gardeners etc) there doesn't seem to be a shortage of cash.
These people don't make up the whole parent body, but a very decent chunk.
I am talking about Prep schools here - I know far fewer than the 7% nationally who go private are in Preps, so perhaps this level of wealth is less prevalent in secondaries where a decent number come in from state schools. And I am talking about the more expensive end of Prep schools - round here, the fees range from about £7k per year to about £15k. There are proabably more 2 income families in the slightly cheaper ones....not sure.
So yes, I think lots of people struggle to afford private fees...and many of them simply don't access private education anymore, and any sense of misplaced shame professionals might have felt about this 20 years ago has largely gone, becaus estate education is so much better and so many more professionals are using it. Whilst there are still people managing to pay fees from 2 professional salaries or even from less than this through extremely frugal living, in my experience Prep schools at least are now the preserve mostly of those who earn mega bucks - a very small share of the population.

ChocolateWombat - large house, very busy father (often travelling), lots of extra curricular activities and ambitious school choices tailor-made to each child in the family = McKinsey Mum management skills to orchestrate it all

Haha! Yes, I see lots of mums employing their high powered skills in family organisation and with the PTA - I've never seen such an impressively organised and run Christmas Fayre as the one at the Prep school where the PTA mums threw in loads of very impressive expertise.
And yes, I cannot imagine how people get kids to 4 different schools in the morning, keep up with 4 different school calendars, lots of extra curricular stuff, get to all of the matches......and still look immaculate! My lack of McKinsey management skills must account for why I haven't managed to have 4 kids and struggle to get my gang to one school without losing the homework and having toothpaste down my front.

Seriously though, the complicated arrangements that lots of families seem to have running, with different schools, away sports matches to support and everything else, really wouldn't be possible without a parent at home. It makes you realise that wealth (of the level that allows 4 kids in independent schools, big house, and one parent to stay at home) really does buy choice - not just about private/state school, but the freedom to have a parent at home in the big house, to choose different schools for each kid, to employ cleaners/gardeners and housekeepers so that the Mum is truly freed from domestic shackles and can be at every school event. It's a whole different scenario to the ones where people are asking if their income is sufficient to just be able to afford private education, if they make huge sacrifices and both work.

At prep level it's true that I knew lots of SAHMs.
Not really because anyone was needed to be super fixer but because the DHs had demanding inflexible jobs ( although I'm sure could have been more flexible if they'd wanted to be) and they lived at a long commute from London.

Now at secondary, it's much less common. Though that might have something to do with the school being located in central London. Shorter commutes and older DC make having two working parents more doable.

A lot of the SAHMs from prep are still at home though.

Too much water under the bridge now. DHs still working long hours. Long commutes.

Because both our kids have SEN and because 100% of our younger son's support was cut with one week's notice, we went private with the younger one. Two of the schools have been great, one was terrible and closed. I would say that a bright child should do fine without the need for a private education and a good mixed comprehensive teaches you much more about life and people. We took this step (and bloody expensive it's been too) because the state system cut our help and we could only muster the energy to fight like stink for the elder one who has PMLD. Don't feel guilty - there are all sorts of ways to support your child without private education. Support the school, get a tutor, value the diversity of the school, it will better reflect life "outside"

toms
Of course you have just opened the pandora's box that the "ban private school brigade" choose to ignore

DH works in a fair few special schools (he loves them) - from the attached unit to the 52 week fully secure

the vast majority are private with the bulk of their pupils state funded
because only with the private / charity rules can the sites meet the needs of the kids who have to be there

jerks who pontificate about all kids getting 8 GCSEs - often because they have only been at selective schools - choose to ignore the kids for whom exams are an utter irrelevance

I haven't heard anyone mention the amount of pressure the private school kids are under. I have some good friends who all send their kids to private schools and I hear that they spend a lot of school holidays revising for tests and getting tutors so that they pass the tests. It's also very competitive with parents and children. I wouldn't pay to put my kids through so much stress.

I don't think stress is a given at private school.

My DC attend possibly one of the most academic schools in the U.K. and are pretty relaxed.

DS has a mock A level tomorrow and is as we speak watching The Shining .

DD should have a mock but isn't going to take it as she's in the US. School not seem excised about it.

It depends on the child surely, some will be stressed others won't.
I have found it greatly depends on their personalities and know of children in state schools under stress because the teachers push them to meet targets.

I think it absolutely is down to personalities and possibly also the family's lifestyle plays its part.

Tests and exams are part and parcel of school life, whatever sector. No need to get het up about that. But some people can't not.

getAHaircut

I completely agree, although I can't comment on their family life, although both sets of parents seem similar, I know of two girls in particular who stress had a severe consequence on their lives.
They are both anorexic/ bulimic and quite poorly atm, both my dds friends.
One is at a very selective private school, the other an improving state school.
My dd has been so worried about both friends as she is close to them both and been in a position where her help has been required by the schools and their parents.
My dd hadn't slept for most of the week because of the stress she was under but luckily through talking it through with us and the professionals she knows there is nothing she can do to stop them, but to be a good friend.

I think there can be pressure in either sector. And it's not just the high ability kids who feel it. And it's not just about targets in state schools.

Moving from an outer London primary to an inner London academically-"elite" girl's school, I would say that children getting stressed is down to the parents, not the school. The school seems perfectly sensible. Her first, year I thought most of the other mum's were mad as a box of frogs. This is just my personal opinion and personal experience, but these women really, really needed to settle down and to quit over thinking things. They wanted to micro manage their DDs' social lives, school day, extracurriculars etc. Any small misstep sent them into a total panic. This is ridiculous, and doesn't send a good message to children.

I felt like the only one saying to her DD, it'll all be fine, give it time, it takes time to get to know people, you'll catch up and figure the place out soon enough, etc.

And sure enough, she is fine, she has friends, she is doing better than fine academically, she is enjoying all the things the school has to offer, etc.

Now it is quite possible that private schools have more than their fair share of wound up parents like this. A lot of these parents have been tempered in the white heat of some very competitive career paths. Maybe their lived experience is that there is no room for mistakes; and this anxiousness leaks out in their parenting.

Me, I took a big step back when my children were born. I think I am a more rounded person now. I've gone back to work to pay for private secondary schooling. (BTW, I earn less in absolute terms than I did 15 years ago. There are no easy choices. No golden path.)

Yes, it's widely documented that more and more teenagers have mental health problems. Apparently the big things contributing are pressure to get results, plus the impact of constant social media.
Such a sad thing for our teenagers and those coming up to teen years. I think parents can play a big role in helping them keep perspective on things, demonstrating that we love them regardless of academic achievement and teaching them about friendship and managing IT and social media. Schools can do so much in these areas, but our home influence is key.

Sadly, I also know plenty of adolescent DC with mental health problems. It rarely can be attributed to school when things go very badly wrong - sometimes parents have chosen a school that is totally wrong for their DC but that is not the school's fault. There are plenty of fairly bonkers parents out there who make their DC's lives very difficult indeed.

"I hear they spend lots of holidays revising for tests and getting tutors so that they can pass the tests."
peesandlove do you really believe this doesn't happen in the state sector? I know two tutors both are tutoring children in both sectors. Anecdotally and perhapssurprisingly at DS2's school no work was set or expected during the holidays except in the Easter of yr 11/13.
I work with children with significant mental health problems, the overwhelming vast majority are state educated, regardless of what sector they are educated in pressure from school/parents to do well in exams etc is one of a whole variety of factors contributing to their problems.

I think it all really depends on what your state options are like and the individual children.

DS went to state primary and is now at a state grammar, I'm very happy with the education he's received so far and he loves school, however we moved before DD started school and she didn't get in to DS' amazing state school, the school she did get into isn't good enough (ive done supply work there, I wouldn't trust them to teach my cat) and all the other schools in catchment are oversubscribed, so we've scraped together enough to put her through private, which is great and she's happy.

DS would do well wherever we sent him, he's naturally smart, very confident and hard working, DD is sensitive and easily distracted and needs the extra push private gives her.