if you could afford to go private, should you?

[tankerdale]

Sometimes I worry that we've got our priorities wrong. We've ended up in a lovely large home with high running costs, we've got some but not loads of savings, most of our 'wealth' is in our house. Income is very good on paper but month to month we only manage to save a small amount, if any. I work 2.5 days, DH is full time. We have a nice lifestyle and I guess eat out a bit but I don't think we're otherwise extravagant, don't spend much on holidays, run 1 car, don't spend loads on clothes etc.

3dc, 2 already at primary school. We live in the catchment of what is considered a very good non selective state secondary but it is massive.

As it stands we couldn't afford to put 3dc through private secondary (there's a nice one nearby). But have we got it wrong? Should we move to a more modest home and prioritise paying for their education?

Feeling a bit guilty that we're not putting them first. Dc1 seems v bright and will probably be ok anywhere, dc2 I'm not so sure about and too early to tell with dc3.

If they go to the state school and have any problems I'm going to wish we made a different choice I think.

So - in principle, if you can pay for private - should you?

There are some private schools that do cater for the rich and thick. It's daft to pretend they don't exist. There are others that cater for the rich and clever.

thick little rich darlings
It never ceases to amaze me that it's acceptable to so many to write highly offensive comment like this but if I wrote thick little poor kid I'd rightly have the wrath of most of MN come down on me. Nearly all the privately educated children I've met wouldn't dream of coming out with a comment like this. Recently DS2 and I listened to a state educated child say that he wouldn't choose X university because the girls were wondering around in tracksuits and some were very obviously pregnant. DS2 was appalled and pointed out later that if he'd made comments like that the mother would probably have gone around saying how his expensive education had turned him into a screaming snob looking down his nose and the working classes.
"They only highlight their positives and hide their failures. State schools can't keep entering their pupils for the same exam several times to get to get better results. State school can't fund remarks."
The only children I've know over the years who've sat the same exam several times to get better results were in state schools.
In the independent sector parents often have to pay for remarks (we would have had to if we had wanted too which we didn't), at DS2's school we were strongly advised against doing it as it usually made no difference. I frequently read on here in August parents asking about remarks it's not only parents from the independent sector thinking about it.

It all depends on where you live!

I think Talkinpeace for example and I live in areas where state schools are good enough not to have to consider private (one child happy in maroon and black, and the other in Navy )

It's a postcode lottery!

I know this has become about more than me and my particular situation, but I have been reading all the responses and have found them helpful.

It's true that the children enjoy living in a nice home, but that can also set them aside as our house appears 'grander' than all their friends and they do get comments about it (well just the eldest so far). Ironically they would probably 'fit in' better in terms of their house at a private school, but then we'd need to downsize!

We also live near a really good school not a million miles from talkinpeace I think - think green blazers and Chinese experiment..,,

"thick little rich darlings
It never ceases to amaze me that it's acceptable to so many to write highly offensive comment like this"

Oh, come off it, happygardening. Firstly, there are private schools who do specialize in the rich but thick. And second of all, every single thread about the different sectors has far worse things said about state school kids. Far worse.

My inlaws paid for all their children to go private.including my husband...they had expensive holidays and private school..I was dragged up,through a bush backward.failed all GCSES....but I turned it round.sorted myself out..got to university,got a degree,where I met my husband.we have the exact same degree...our children haven't gone private..

I'm sorry Bertrand but I just find labelling anyone in particular children as as "thick" regardless of their background highly offensive and completely unnecessary. What sort of example are we as adults setting to children. Secondly even if they are "thick" what difference does that make to them as people?
We should not be labelling people according to their level of intelligence. especially when the words "thick little rich darlings" were being used in such a derogatory fashion and everyone on here knows it. It suits many on here who are anti independent education to imply that privately educated children are basically thick but over tutored by their schools and parents and spoon fed to pass exams, they then get into top universities because of the schools they went to, drop out or do badly but due to the "old boys net work" fall onto their feet in well paid in demand jobs. I can only speak anecdotally of those we know of all ages, this could not be further from the truth, the are a wide variety of successes some very successful and sadly a few failures both whilst at university and in terms of careers, pretty similiar I suspect to a same size group who followed similiar paths on leaving school from the state sector.
I genuinely don't know if independent education gets your DC's better exam results my gut feeling is that an average (another term I dislike) child might do better but I do know for a child to do well in any sector they need to be happy n and hopefully out of school. A child might be unhappy in his state school, he might not like it's ethos, not like his peer group, not get on with a particular teacher or wish a certain activity was offered and therefore be unhappy he might change to an independent school love it's ethos, make great friends, love his new teacher and get the chance to play tiddlywinks three times a week be happy and thrive or vice versa of course. But none of this of course will compensate fully if he's unhappy at home.
But many people clearly think independent education definitely = better results otherwise they wouldn't be stumping up often considerable sums of money.
But I do know that some school as you've already acknowledged Bertrum add considerable "cultural capital". At DS's school more lessons each week were devoted to an academic non examined curriculum than any other subject, as we get older few people are interested in our exam results, calculus, chemical equations etc for most of us as we go through our working lives become increasingly irrelevant and forgotten but I hope and believe this "cultural capital" can stay with us and can enhance our individual quality of life and general understanding of the world around us, now that in my book is worth paying for.

We chose to send our eldest DD to an Independent school for secondary after using our local state option for primary.

In our case, the local state option was mediocre while the independent options in London are world class. We find it expensive, we think it is value for money.

If we lived in another part of the country, or had less income the calculus may have been different. Living in a smaller house and running one car is fine, foregoing pension savings, for example, would not be fine for us.

The adults I meet who went to private schools all seem a little embarassed about it. Presumably there are many who are not embarrassed, but they must move in different circles to me! (Random observation)

No, I don't like labeling anyone thick, either. Or anything else. And I try not to do it.

But I do find the moral high ground talking by some private school parents on this subject hypocritical in the extreme. All this "well, if I said that about state school kids there would be an uproar". Well, no there wouldn't. Because it happens all the bloody time. Every time someone says that they've chosen private because of the disruption, bullying, low aspirations, chavvyness- whatever - of state schools. Every time somebody says state schools are "shite". Every time someone says they would rather only have one child than use state education. Every time someone says something like "I know what goes on in comprehensives- " Every time somebody says that they would use State but their child is too clever/sensitive/talented. And things like this are said without comment on every single thread on the state/private debate. And yes, rich but thick is not a very nice thing to say, and I wouldn't say it- although Tim Nice but Dim was a character created by two public school boys based on someone they knew-but there are private schools specializing in the rich but lower ability. And it's important that people know that, otherwise their perception of people from private schools will be a bit skewed!

I think some of these are false comparisons Bert.

I think that private school is a luxury which should, in general, only be paid for if you can either comfortably afford it or if the alternative schools are truly awful.

There are advantages and disadvantages of both types of education. The main difference is class size and a range of activities which can be undertaken outside the curriculum. There are undoubtedly huge opportunities to do regular sport, drama and music, which are often limited in the state sector.

The disadvantage of private schooling is that a lot of students are spoon fed to obtain the highest possible grades and then struggle either at university or in employment later when they have to stand on their own two feet. They are, however, trying to change, with varying degrees of success.

Some students thrive in larger classes and, mixing with a more diverse set of students, they fare better in the real world. Others, however, do benefit from a more protected environment. It does depend on the particular pupil and the actual choice of schools.

However, if you think about the tutoring and extra curricular opportunities you could buy for your children with only 20% of the school fees, this can compensate for the lack of opportunities in school.

My biggest reservation about going private if it is a struggle is that children can feel guilty and indebted to the parents for the 'sacrifices' that they have made. Frequently parents struggle not to communicate this to their children, and this can lead to a very unhealthy dynamic.

It's not derogatory name calling if I say that my local comp has a weak cohort for too sets, and therefore doesn't cater well for the highly academically able. It's just a fact backed up by GCSE stats vs Progess 8 stats. (Not that I also haven't said that there are no clever children there. There are, and I believe they are being let down.)

When posters use th

...use th

...use the term "spoon feeding" what exactly do they mean?

Damn phone

But I do find the moral high ground talking by some private school parents on this subject hypocritical in the extreme.

Utterly this. The idea that privately educated children and adults are not routinely disparaging about 'the plebs' is nonsense. They may not use the same terminology but its certainly there.

Bertrand I would respond in the same way when derogatory comments are made about state educated children. It is essential that adults and as parents that we speak out against any kind of derogatory stereotyping comments made about children regardless of their background in fact I think we have a moral duty to speak out. These sort of comments should not be tolerated on MN. These are children they do not choose their background be they rich or poor or their academic ability.
I dont care who coin any phrase amusing or not it does not make right.
There are some pretty grim state schools out there that probably do make some parents "shudder", but there are also IMO some pretty grim independent schools out there, they may not be grim in the same way but it doesn't mean they are better.
larry are lots of children in the independent sector "spoonfed" do you have proper evidence for this? I can only speak anecdotally at DS2's school there was little or no spoon feeding, there may be some at other independent schools I've worked in but having had another DS in the state sector at an "outstanding high achieving academy" it was no more than I saw there.

We went through this a few years ago.
DH was very pro the Independent route, I wasn't sure.

We looked round so many schools. The biggest difference we noticed was the sports facilities, but my feeling was that with all the money saved we could fund all sorts of extra opportunities.

We moved house to be in the catchment of a great Comp, which of course was using our cash to benefit the DC, and never regretted the decision.
All are now at good Unis and are very happy.

I've never, ever heard any parent or child at DD1's school to refer to anyone as a "pleb." Or comment on state schools at all, much less "routinely." These people are leading their own lives, they aren't giving state school students any thought at all, and are certainly not disparaging them.

At DD2's state primary there is talk about private school families and pupils. It's a mixture of curiosity, envy and chipping-ness.

Sort of like this thread.

The "spoon feeding" thing is interesting.

I have a friend who was head of year 7 at a state grammar school. I once asked her what the main differences are between the state and private kids, and she said that the private school kids knew more stuff, but the state school ones were better at finding stuff out. Which might indicate that the private schools do more traditional "chalk and talk" teaching?

"At DD2's state primary there is talk about private school families and pupils. It's a mixture of curiosity, envy and chipping-ness"

That's another frustrating thing. The assumption that if you have any issues with private education it's "envy or chippiness"

I've never, ever heard any parent or child at DD1's school to refer to anyone as a "pleb.

Well duh... The language and codes children use with each other is rather different from the variant used with adults.
Its often subtle, often they don't even realise they are doing it eg
they aren't giving state school students any thought at all which is part of the problem.

or that they are making assumptions such as:
It's a mixture of curiosity, envy and chipping-ness

And of course the endemic problem of institutionalised privilege whereby the successful appoint 'people like us' to junior roles.

Regarding spoonfeeding - yes it is a problem at private schools which is good at getting them into higher education but not always preparing them for it. One of the reasons for abandoning continuous assessment in GCSE and A levels was the extent to which work was being 'helped' by adults. The problem by and large was not in the state sector.

There is absolutely no evidence that independent schools spoon feed and that this results in poor performance at university.

Quite the contrary.

Just because posters want something to be so, doesn't make it so.

If your local schools are good, thank your lucky stars and go with it. Don't worry about the school being big, that is often a plus at secondary level as they are able to offer a bigger choice of subjects and extra curricular activities. A good school will have make sure all pupils are looked after with a good pastoral system.

DD went to an excellent state comp, lots of opportunities and got 10 GCSES all A and A*. Now at one of the best performing arts schools in the country. All for free.

DS is private as unfortunately the excellent comp is girls only, provision for boys is oddly lacking here (something that I am pretty about) He is doing well and should come out with good GCSEs, but I don't see that he is getting more than offered by DDs comp. We are hoping he can go to the excellent sixth form college nearby which is used by lots of private school pupils.

If the local state doesn't work out you can downsize then and meanwhile your house continues to gain in value.

Be glad you have good state options suitable for your DCs and continue to enjoy your current lifestyle as a family.

If it ain't broke don't fix it!