if you could afford to go private, should you?

[tankerdale]

Sometimes I worry that we've got our priorities wrong. We've ended up in a lovely large home with high running costs, we've got some but not loads of savings, most of our 'wealth' is in our house. Income is very good on paper but month to month we only manage to save a small amount, if any. I work 2.5 days, DH is full time. We have a nice lifestyle and I guess eat out a bit but I don't think we're otherwise extravagant, don't spend much on holidays, run 1 car, don't spend loads on clothes etc.

3dc, 2 already at primary school. We live in the catchment of what is considered a very good non selective state secondary but it is massive.

As it stands we couldn't afford to put 3dc through private secondary (there's a nice one nearby). But have we got it wrong? Should we move to a more modest home and prioritise paying for their education?

Feeling a bit guilty that we're not putting them first. Dc1 seems v bright and will probably be ok anywhere, dc2 I'm not so sure about and too early to tell with dc3.

If they go to the state school and have any problems I'm going to wish we made a different choice I think.

So - in principle, if you can pay for private - should you?

Haircut, maybe we could look at it this way: if you went to state school and got 3 Bs, and your neighbour went to private school and got 3 Bs, and then you both went to the same university but you got a first and your neihbour a poorly second, what it shows is that had your parents had the same amount of wealth as your neighbour's parents, and you had gone to the same school as your neighbour, then you might well have got 3 As.

Thus, you are cleverer than your neighbour, and once you all start batting on the same pitch, it becomes obvious.

Maybe that's why state school educated children appear to do better at university? Because to get there in the first place was a greater challenge for them.

In response to your earlier questions my experience was

• bullied in private, not in state
• 'bad' crowd at state are managed extremely well whereas 'bad' crowd (bad for different reasons) weren't tackled for fear of upsetting parents and loosing the school money
• disruptive children - not a problem in either really bar SEN children who have 1:1 support (I don't count this as disruption though - more a broader understanding of the differences in people which they didn't see in private)
• motivation to be the best academically - more so in state. In a larger state there are 7-9 children in ds year group challenging each other. Private wasn't that way at all.
• extra curricular activities were all talk and no action in private. They looked good on paper but a bit rubbish. State was better resourced.
• challenges for child were about the same. Smaller classes meant no small action went unnoticed - something that was very unsuited to one of my children and had a negative affect on confidence.

In state I found a really good breadth of people and an awareness that people come from all walks of life and have different interests and abilities and how to relate to that. In private we just didn't see that - it was very one tracked about what money could buy you and if it cost, it must be better with the school capitalising on that to keep people paying.

That's only my experience and if I'd come from that background maybe I'd see it differently.

I know of a child at an independent school, sent there because the parents had a wobble over the local comp. Said child has just failed 2/3 A level mocks and with regard to a specialist outside activity that the school is supposed to excel in... well child's friend in the local comp who shares the same specialism has had many more opportunities via school and county than the one at the private school. Please think very carefully about what environment would suit your child. It was obvious to several people that the private was not a good fit for this child, but sadly parental panic can be a strong driver!

Ohdarling kinda.
I mean the HSFCE have since admitted that the original figures were wrong.
And that the 83% and 74% figures cited are the wrong way round (you couldn't make this shit up, could you?).

But at the lower end of grade requirements, yes, state schooled pupils get more firsts than private schooled pupils.

Obviously, privately schooled students are not massively represented on these courses, so the reasons for them getting low grades might be difficult to assess in any general terms.
I suspect it's a slippery mix of state schoolers underachieving on grades and private schoolers getting in by the skin of their teeth.

But here's the awful thing - the private schooler with a lower second will probably fare better in terms of career opportunities and deposits on houses than the state schooler, not because he or she was privately educated, but because his or her parents have money (oh, and assuming said parents are prepared to share it. Another matter if not).

Sorry - meant to say 'will probably fare better.... than the state schooler with the first....

We can afford private school, the impact on our life is minimal and affects nothing but our savings pots. Mine went private at primary for various reasons and are going state at secondary

Are they less likely to get bullied at private?
Happens everywhere, I've seen or heard of very little bullying at the state school. When it happens it is dealt with. Teenagers can be mean to their friends and acquaintances whatever sector they are in.

Less likely to fall in with a 'bad crowd?'
I'm not seeing a bad crowd at our state school. Those who the children describe as the bad crowd are so far from bad in the broadest sense of the word. They're not even on my kids radar anyway, they don't share his values or interests

Less likely to have to deal with really disruptive behaviour in class?
None at all. Too much chat and a bit of answering back is the worst but according to DS behaviour overall is very good

More likely to be motivated to try their best academically?
We've had GCSE options week this week. Judging by the year 9 facebook page, queues to see teachers and various whatsapp groups between children and parents this simply isn't an issue. Discussion is all around which subjects the universities are going to be more interested in.

More likely to be challenged (for very able DC) and less likely to be 'overlooked' (for less able DC)?
No issues at all, school offers everything academic for all levels. Expectation of top pupils is a straight run of A -A or equivalent, middles are to get the best that they can but B-A and other than those for whom it's beyond their ability C's and above for the bottom set with lots of advice on which subjects they're best suited to. Mine is academic in a top set of extremely academic children, Top sets expected to get top grades, working hard is a given not an option.

More likely to have exposure to high quality music and music-making at private? (Music important to both DH & I and DC are showing signs of interest & ability)
Probably better in private, it's not our state schools strength although there is opportunity for private lessons and they have good studios and rehearsal rooms. My kids aren't musical so haven't explored this.

On the other side, are they more likely to feel very under pressure at the selective private school?
Very possibly. Some kids will thrive on this, some won't. We those this route because we felt it wasn't best for our kids.

Less likely to develop the ability to relate to people from all different backgrounds?
Don't think that it actually makes much difference.

Yes, the evidence is clear.

Young people who come from wealthy backgrounds fare better in life than those who don't (obviously there are exceptions). The UK is not a level playing field.

Not in education. Not in the job market. Not in housing...

As for how much influence a person's school has on their life going forward, it's always difficult to say.
There are so many intersecting factors.

But private schooling does seem to be a dominant factor in many positive outcomes. Sure, there may also be the associated wealth factor, but that's not always as relevant (though sometimes it is more relevant).

I think though, that no one can argue that the current attack on state school funding will have a massive detrimental affect in the near future. Coupled with the teacher shortage and the slew of new qualifications, it's going to cause a chasm between the two sectors, which we will see play out in higher education and then in the work force.

Hobbit, no, it's not ok if the parents are inarticulate because private schools interview the parents too. Your children don't stand a chance if you don't tick the boxes. But you know that, of course. wink

Ohdarling - my DCs went to private schools and neither school interviewed parents. I've never heard of that happening - I'm not saying it doesn't of course, but which schools do that?

I wouldn't send the children to an independent primary, because I'm very happy with the state school they go to.

For secondary, the local comprehensives are excellent, but if I had more money, I would send the to the comprehensive with the knowledge that if it turned out not to suit her that there would be more alternatives.

The DC of friends from a variety of local comprehensives have all gone on to top universities, so state school is the obvious first choice.

As I always find myself thinking on threads like this, ironically, the children who would gain most from
private school are the ones who would never be able to go to one....

Private schools are businesses.
You are a paying customer.
You can both walk away from the deal.

State schools are a public service that has to cope with whatever comes through the door except selective schools but that was not OP's question

By definition state schools will be more "mixed"
and they are much less well funded
and they reflect their area

then again the ultra competitive SW London private schools are a world away from some of the obscure Marches ones ...

OP
You have to decide what is right for you and for your kids.
Choosing school on the expectation of others
or on your recollections of school 20+ years ago may not end well

Dapple, one of the schools that interviews parents appears on a thread on this website, full of parents holding each others' hands through the ether as they await the results of their dc's applications. Are you telling me that when you apply to a private school, the head never meets the parents, only the child?

Bertrand, you're right - private schools are accessible only to the wealthy, and the very poor (through bursaries). I actually know somebody who refuses to work more than two days a week in case "they take the bursary away".

And to narrow it down even further - private schools are accessible only to the very wealthy and the children of those 'poor' parents who are switched on enough to negotiate the application and bursary process. Most children don't fall into either camp.

Ohdarling - Dh and I never met the headmasters of my dc's' public schools either when we applied or during their careers at the school. I did meet my dc's headmaster at a book launch a couple of years after my son had left the school.
We did meet the heads of the dcs' prep schools during the time they were at the schools.

Ohdarling - sorry, an ambiguous sentence - I meant I never met the headmasters during my dcs time at the schools.

Well then Dapple, I stand corrected. I haven't come across that before. I have to say, I'm surprised. I'm pretty pissed off that I've only met the head of my dc's bog standard comprehensive school twice. You need to know who the captain of the ship is, surely?

"and the very poor (through bursaries)" That's the special sort of "private school poor".......

Ohdarling - hmm.....it had never occurred to me, but I see your point.
Both schools are large, popular and oversubscribed. My dcs and their friends were all happy as pupils and us parents and all the other parents who we knew were very satisfied with all aspects of the schools.
Work related matters and pastoral things were dealt with by the dcs' tutors or house master/mistress.
I suppose if there had been a major problem such as the child having a bad accident or getting into serious trouble then the head would have been in contact with the parents.

Private schools are not all the same - some are very bad with poorly qualified teachers, outdated teaching methods and a lack of breadth of curriculum. Girls day schools are often worst offenders - filled with thick rich little darlings who are thought too fragile for the real world.
Private schools appear to do better in several ways - a selective intake (if compared to top set achievement at a comprehensive the company will often do better). They only highlight their positives and hide their failures (state schools have no option to hide). State schools can't keep entering pupil for same exam several times to get best result. State schools can't fund remarks.
There are some excellent independent schools which provide elite groups with peers who support each other throughout life. There are also excellent comprehensive schools that give all children a fighting chance.

thick rich little darlings
I thought the word 'thick' was frowned upon on mumsnet. Maybe you think it's ok provided its juxtaposed with 'rich'?

Feeling a bit guilty that we're not putting them first
Unless the children you refer to aren't allowed to live in the lovely large house, you are putting them first. It might be a different way, but there is a lot to be said for living in a home where you can bring friends home. And having parents that aren't worried about money is priceless!

I think you have to look at it in the round. How good is the particular private school that you are considering compared to the state school you have available? Is the marginal difference worth the fees?

I agree Dapple "thick, rich little darling" is a fairly unpleasant way to talk about children.

There is no virtue in being clever.

Feeling a bit guilty that we're not putting them first
define first
when my kids were small we lived on tax credits
BUT
either DH or I was able to go to every single school event / trip till around their year 4
as they got older we pulled back
but we are still both able to take August off - so they come first in the holidays