Selection get out clause

[mrz]

http://schoolsweek.co.uk/grammar-get-out-clause-confirmed-selection-permissable-within-trusts/?utmcontent=buffer81f1c&utmmmedium=social&utmsource=twitter.com&utmmcampaign=buffer

However, I think this issue of access for poor and low achieving children to any 'good school' is fundamentally difficult, given that intake is part of what parents feel makes a school desirable or otherwise.

Exactly that people usually think a good school is one that gets over 70% 5 A-C, regardless of whether it should be doing better than that.

We know that low achieving kids don't usually get 5A-C, so any school with a higher proportion of low achievers will be regarded as a bad school, even if it does well by its intake.

We also know that disadvantaged kids nationally do worse than their similarly able advantaged peers and the reasons for this are more complex than 'they go to shit schools'. Any school that is in a deprived area will, due to the nature of its intake, get worse results than those in well-off areas, even if it's a good school. Worse results and being seen as a worse school will then cause the sort of brain drain (both staff and students) that inevitably mean that the school meets the low expectation. Schools are seen as good because of the area they serve, and schools are seen as bad because of the area they serve. One feeds into the other.

EllyMayClampett Tue 04-Oct-16 10:08:41 Is it vastly more of a problem mini? How so?

I can give you an example from my area. The most academically able, supported and wealthy families get a choice of 10 schools. The lowest ability, unsupported, deprived children don't get any choice, they have to take what they are given.

Elly - it's vastly more of a problem because poor children are much more significantly under represented in grammars than they are in even the best comprehensives.

Re: fair banding - yes, this isn't completely problem free. In order to use this method year 6 pupils need to sit a fair banding test. Any part of the admissions process which requires a test will discriminate against the poorest and most disadvantaged pupils, as parents from this group are 1. less likely to realise that the school actually requires this for admissions purposes and 2. even if they are aware they are less likely to bring their children to the school for testing.

Never the less, it still helps. There are probably ways of tinkering with it, for example, having the test sat in local primaries, which would improve this.

By way of example, two of the most successful London comprehensive schools in areas where a family home nearby is likely to cost 600K plus - Dunraven in Streatham, and Harris City Crystal Palace, which is about 4 miles from Dunraven. Both schools are outstanding OFSTED rating and hugely oversubscribed. Harris CP is the only comprehensive to have achieved a perfect OFSTED and is the most oversubscribed comprehensive in the UK.

Their FSM figures are
Dunraven: 18.8%
Harris City: 9.8%

By comparison the national average rates of FSM at grammars is less than 3%.

And I'd say that Harris City's FSM rate is unusually low.

My dc's comprehensive (where most nearby houses are in the £2 million mark) is very successful - 79% 5 A-C's including maths and English. It's hugely oversubscribed. 28% of dc's there are on FSM.

Sorry, should have added that all three of the schools I mention use some sort of fair banding process to allocate places.

Obviously your DCs school does not educate many of the local children then !
They must all go either 'Private' or on the tube to outlaying grammar schools . Otherwise where do the 28% of FSM children come from, if not from other areas.

why is selection by parental income such a massive issue for the pro-grammar brigade when it comes to comprehensives, but not when it comes to grammar

Because the less well off parent can still help their child get into a grammar but is not able to to help their child into an expensive catchment area beside a good comprehensive.

academic selection based on fair banding may be siphoning off more than their fair share of academically able children for the area. - Yes, its interesting that fair banding is anything but fair.

sandy, there are some big council estates not far off from my dc's school - a couple of hundred yards away.

"Because the less well off parent can still help their child get into a grammar but is not able to to help their child into an expensive catchment area beside a good comprehensive."

What about the children whose parents simply don't have the skills or the confidence, or the education themselves to tutor and support their child effectively throughout primary?

mathsmum314 Tue 04-Oct-16 12:21:38 Because the less well off parent can still help their child get into a grammar but is not able to to help their child into an expensive catchment area beside a good comprehensive

So you are claiming that Grammar schools do offer social mobility?

^I'm not sure there is much in it when comparing the tution costs for two or more children over two or three years and 6-12 month rental payments.

Tuition for DD1 cost about £1,000 over 1.5 years. Still a lot of money for some but it is only a fraction of the cost of renting or house prices.

What about the children whose parents simply don't have the skills or the confidence, or the education themselves to tutor and support their child effectively throughout primary?

Children who aren't highly academic, or are still to find their 'talents' are well catered for in comprehensives. This debate is about the highly academic children who aren't well catered for in comprehensives.

So you are claiming that Grammar schools do offer social mobility?

I am saying new grammar schools could offer social mobility. Of course it will still be influenced by family situation but that is still better that the zero option of wealth selection.

ChickenSalad Tue 04-Oct-16 13:09:26 Tuition for DD1

So you have more than one DC?

I doubt £1,000 would come anywhere close to covering the cost of renting in catchment, paying a private tutor, buying the study material, attending a tuition centre and sitting mocks, which an increasing number of parents are doing. That's putting aside the fact that some tutors charge as much as £60 per hour for 11 plus tuition.

mathsmum314 Tue 04-Oct-16 13:20:26 I am saying new grammar schools could offer social mobility.

What are you basing this on? The main objection to Grammar schools is that they don't offer social mobility and they never really have.

The super selective school DD1 goes to doesn't have a catchment, or at least, has one that is very large, so it doesn't have the renting/house price affect in the same way.

Tuition was £30 a class once a week - about £1,200 if DD1 had tuition for the whole school year, which she didn't. Bond books aren't cheap but I doubt we spent more than £50 on "materials". I have two DDs but a few years apart which means we can prepare for the next one.

I don't necessarily agree with having a type of test where tuition is necessary, and as I said, the figures I mention will still be prohibitive for some people, but it still doesn't stack up to the cost of living near many top schools which are not grammars.

I am basing it on the fact that the ability to pass a test can maybe be tutored for, but gifted academic children have the ability to pass the test with only free parental tutoring. So even its only 5% of poor children that get into new grammars, that is still infinity more than get into a good school in an expensive area.

So you think that comps in expensive areas all have zero free school meal kids?

Mathsmum, I've just given you an example of three of the most oversubscribed schools in the country - all in expensive areas, and all take in at least triple, but mostly 6 or 7 times the number of FSM kids that grammars do.

2StripedSocks Tue 04-Oct-16 16:33:15 Many grammars have no catchment so no need to rent near( hence their appeal).

The majority of Grammar schools do have catchments. The only Grammar schools that don't are those that are super selective or those that are not heavily over subscribed and struggling to fill places.

Many tutors pay vastly less than £60

Tutors don't pay anything.

It's £16 in our area.

Fair enough, you are obviously not in Devon then unless these tution centres are offering heavy discounts and don't actually charge the £20 - £25 they advertise.

www.efateachingcentre.co.uk/11-plus-grammar-tuition/11-enquiry-form/

www.rivieratuition.co.uk/prices-and-booking/

www.janepowelltutoring.co.uk/holclasses.cfm

torbaytutors.co.uk/Register-for-Weekly-Tuition.php

mathsmum is concerned that poor people can't get into the best comps. She wants to open grammars so that poor kids can get into the best schools. Except we know that poor kids don't get into grammars. So measures will have to be taken to ensure that poor kids get into grammars.

I really don't understand where grammars come into this argument. Just use whatever measures will be taken to ensure that poor kids get into grammars and apply them to the best comps. No need for grammars, and all poor kids have the opportunity to go to a good school.