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Why is religion forced on all children at school?

323 replies

Kateyoz · 22/09/2016 09:46

We are not religious and so chose a state school not a faith school for our boys but they come home every day singing hymns they are taught in assembly - the school said we can withdraw them from assemblies but why should they be made to miss out? Shouldn't state schools teach all beliefs and not focus on one, or leave religion to the parents and keep it out of school? Feel like mine are being indoctrinated into a religion against our will

OP posts:
sandyholme · 26/09/2016 21:35

OK I have misread the thread !

I sign off......

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 27/09/2016 20:02

Why not opt in worship, if worship is required?

Why, though? This is a Christian country. It is significant in the life of our nation and our values. Why make worship opt-in? It's nothing to be ashamed of. You don't have to go.

I like the idea of a neutral reflective space for children who don't go, BTW.

JassyRadlett · 27/09/2016 21:02

Why, though? This is a Christian country. It is significant in the life of our nation and our values. Why make worship opt-in? It's nothing to be ashamed of. You don't have to go

It's a nominally Christian country based on entrenched legal privilege and a knowingly dodgy Census question. Surveys have repeatedly shown that less than 40% of people in Britain believe in any deity, let alone the Christian god.

Why do you want to segregate children in a place they're required by law to be, by forcing some to opt out of the life of the school? Why not make school a place where everyone's beliefs are treated with equal respect?

And why do you bring up 'shame'? Interesting choice.

BertrandRussell · 27/09/2016 21:15

"I like the idea of a neutral reflective space for children who don't go, BTW."

Why not a neutral reflective assembly that the whole school, of all faiths and none can share in? Why split them up?

JassyRadlett · 27/09/2016 21:19

I'm confused about what's 'neutral' about a reflective space that is delivering a daily message to children that they are not mainstream or normal in the eyes of the school.

But then, no one on these threads has ever answered the question of why, when we are so worried about integration of or religious communities and the risks for radicalisation in segregated communities, we are happy to use state-funded education as a tool of religious segregation.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 27/09/2016 21:27

I don't think opting out is being segregated from the life of the school, actually. A multiplicity of things go on in schools and you can be very much part of the school life without being in everything. Children who don't eat during Ramadan aren't missing out on school life by not joining in at lunchtime. School life is bigger and more resilient than that.

As for dodgy censuses etc., I don't think the value vacuum in our society is anything to celebrate and don't think it justifies a race to the bottom in terms of draining our education system of christian values and principles.

I'm not sure how respect comes into it. There will always be a mainstream but it's a very blinkered approach that assumes the minority position automatically commands less respect or that people holding minority views will be valued less. (Though I could see your point if nothing was being done with children who opt out). Practising Christians are, on the whole, often in the minority in modern society and they are used to being segregated out of the mainstream culture. Christians are obliged to 'opt out' of many, many aspects of modern life because a lot of it has a poor moral basis. It is a struggle to keep Christian values (and I accept these may be found in other religions also) in our education system because we should be educated the whole person; never has it been needed more.

I used the word shame because it was the closest I could find to counter the attitude I perceived in your post - that Christianity in schools was something to apologise for and hide away, like nudity. I disagree with that. I think it's something to celebrate.

My DD's head teacher is a practising Christian, so is her class teacher and the majority of the staff. You walk into the school and an enormous wall display confronts you saying 'God made each of us special and loved'. She is learning to pray at school, and to worship, and is pondering what and who God is, and why he placed us in families. It's a state school. Not a faith school. I think what she is learning is positive and enriching to her life. She is certainly surrounded by love.

You're not obliged by law to be at school BTW, but I know what you mean.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 27/09/2016 21:31

Why not a neutral reflective assembly that the whole school, of all faiths and none can share in? Why split them up?

Yes, why don't we all do exactly the same thing and believe exactly the same thing and keep things so 'neutral' that, while everyone is involved, there's nothing to actually be involved in?

I suppose the answer to your question, Bertrand, is that there is value in teaching faith at school, in educating the whole person and meeting a child's needs right across the board; the value in teaching faith is greater than the value of a neutral, one-size-fits-all homily. I know you won't agree with this.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 27/09/2016 21:39

Jassy I'm against fundamentalist religion of any kind (i.e. radicalism) and one reason why faith should be encouraged in schools is that it flourishes in a vacuum of belief. I also think we're able to recognise and cope with the difference in outlook between a jihadi and a priest. It's not exactly a nuanced point.

I do think there is a problem with expectations around 'normal' if we expect children to be identical and expect them to be deeply troubled if they're not. Actually, a look in any modern classroom will show children who are all quite clearly from a variety of different backgrounds and who are all managing to forge a community without losing their individual identities.

At the heart of this there is a difference in that you think there should be a secular 'status quo' and I think it should be faith-based. It clearly reflects wildly different opinions on what faith is and what value it is to people in general; this isn't going to be changed on a chat forum.

JassyRadlett · 27/09/2016 21:51

I don't think opting out is being segregated from the life of the school, actually. A multiplicity of things go on in schools and you can be very much part of the school life without being in everything. Children who don't eat during Ramadan aren't missing out on school life by not joining in at lunchtime. School life is bigger and more resilient than that.

Please. They are sent out of the room during assembly. That is segregation, how can it not be? Are Muslim children sent out of the room during Ramadan, or are they actually being given opportunities to opt in to observances of their own faith, rather than kicked out of someone else's which is deemed superior in the eyes of the school?

Jassy I'm against fundamentalist religion of any kind (i.e. radicalism) and one reason why faith should be encouraged in schools is that it flourishes in a vacuum of belief.

Evidence for this rather extraordinary claim, please?

I also think we're able to recognise and cope with the difference in outlook between a jihadi and a priest. It's not exactly a nuanced point.

Did I suggest otherwise? I simply asked how, if one of our goals to avoid radicalisation is improving integration, we think we are advancing that by expecting all the non-Christians to leave the room so that the school can promote the 'proper' religion.

Your misrepresentation of other people's posts is quite interesting.

I do think there is a problem with expectations around 'normal' if we expect children to be identical and expect them to be deeply troubled if they're not.

Why do you think providing a faith-neutral space leads to identical children, rather than enabling and supporting difference and diversity?

Actually, a look in any modern classroom will show children who are all quite clearly from a variety of different backgrounds and who are all managing to forge a community without losing their individual identities.

Indeed. So let's not undermine that by suggesting that Christianity is just slightly more normal or approved than other or no faiths.

At the heart of this there is a difference in that you think there should be a secular 'status quo' and I think it should be faith-based.

No, you think it should be Christian. You're happy with the status quo because your faith gets a special spot that no one else's does. I get that, privilege is nice and comfortable. It doesn't necessarily make it right or good.

JassyRadlett · 27/09/2016 21:52

I suppose the answer to your question, Bertrand, is that there is value in teaching faith at school

I missed this interesting statement. So the purpose of this is evangelism - ie you want to teach children to be Christians?

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 27/09/2016 22:16

Jassy

You don't understand. I don't want to be privileged. Christians are not privileged really, nowadays. There are huge swathes of modern life we can't be part of - or at least, that are inconsistent with our beliefs and therefore problematic to be part of. You would not turn to Christianity nowadays if privilege was what you wanted. Going to church is not a plus in anyone's book; quite the opposite.

So it isn't privilege I'm after. Let's not misinterpret Wink. I think Christianity, (though imperfectly practised) is a good thing for people and it's a pity that it's not the default setting for more of modern life. Its values make a good template for school life and the school ethos. Although I genuinely would not want to impose my faith on those who were unwilling and genuinely would want to enable others of different faiths to worship, I'm not coming at this from a relativistic standpoint and make no apology for that. We can believe one thing while also recognising the worth and validity of other beliefs and without undermining those who hold them. It doesn't mean we think they're of equal value.

If your word for teaching Christianity and practising it is evangelism, go ahead and use it. However, it's inaccurate because it places too much of an emphasis on making new recruits when most of what we're talking about is simple practising of the faith. However you can't practice the faith communally without an element of growth (teaching) or witness (evangelism) although there is certainly the opportunity for children who do not want anything to do with that not to be there.

What would be done in this neutral reflective space? Is that somewhere for one to look inwards? A good thing to do sometimes but I would argue against a belief that wisdom or understanding or (insert whatever is supposed to be happening for the student here) is primarily found in that way. One thing is for sure - that neutral space will not be neutral unless you are literally sitting in silence.

Non-Christians are not expected to leave the room. That's over-stating and suggesting a degree of exclusivity that isn't there. They can leave if they wish, or they can stay and observe respectfully. I wasn't aware of suggesting that would improve integration. As important as integration is, I have other fish to fry.

I don't want there to be a completely secular society. I don't like the way a 99% secular society is going. I think the more Christianity we have in our institutions, the better. Not because I want to feel privileged or on the inside track, but because our institutions need to be informed and guided by the solid moral principles that the New Testament provides.

BertrandRussell · 27/09/2016 22:21

"My DD's head teacher is a practising Christian, so is her class teacher and the majority of the staff. You walk into the school and an enormous wall display confronts you saying 'God made each of us special and loved'. She is learning to pray at school, and to worship, and is pondering what and who God is, and why he placed us in families. It's a state school"

And you don't see anything even a little bit entitled and arrogant about that? A little bit "I'm getting what I want- tough luck on the rest of you?" You don't think that you have 18 hours in the day to promote Christianity with your children- maybe I don''think need the other 6 as well?

BertrandRussell · 27/09/2016 22:24

Ah, I have just seen your further post. No, you don't see the arrogance and entitlement.

JassyRadlett · 27/09/2016 22:54

You don't understand. I don't want to be privileged. Christians are not privileged really, nowadays.

Except in the legislature, educational provision, and other auspices of the State.

There are huge swathes of modern life we can't be part of - or at least, that are inconsistent with our beliefs and therefore problematic to be part of. You would not turn to Christianity nowadays if privilege was what you wanted. Going to church is not a plus in anyone's book; quite the opposite.

Well, except for those who feign Christianity (or suddenly become more religiously observant) in roughly the right time frame to get their child into a state-funded faith-selective school.

So it isn't privilege I'm after. Let's not misinterpret wink. I think Christianity, (though imperfectly practised) is a good thing for people and it's a pity that it's not the default setting for more of modern life.^

Well yes, that's quite arrogant, isn't it?

This is all about beliefb- your whole post is, really. And here's the thing. I respect your right to hold those beliefs and nowhere on this thread has anyone suggested you shouldn't hold them or tried to undermine them. Simply suggested that respect should be mutual and when we are talking about what is best for all children objectivity is vital. That's why I'm not suggesting atheist schools. That's why the BHA is explicitly against Humanist schools.

Its values make a good template for school life and the school ethos.

What values are distinctly/uniquely Christian, out of interest?

Although I genuinely would not want to impose my faith on those who were unwilling and genuinely would want to enable others of different faiths to worship, I'm not coming at this from a relativistic standpoint and make no apology for that.

'I know best, and any children who haven't decided are fair game.'

We can believe one thing while also recognising the worth and validity of other beliefs and without undermining those who hold them. It doesn't mean we think they're of equal value.

But we aren't willing to see all beliefs treated equally in state institutions.

If your word for teaching Christianity and practising it is evangelism, go ahead and use it. However, it's inaccurate because it places too much of an emphasis on making new recruits when most of what we're talking about is simple practising of the faith.

Evangelism is what the Bible and the Church of Engand call teaching Christianitu to non-Christians; it isn't my word.

However you can't practice the faith communally without an element of growth (teaching) or witness (evangelism) although there is certainly the opportunity for children who do not want anything to do with that not to be there.

That isn't true - no children (even over 18) have the right to opt themselves out.

What would be done in this neutral reflective space? Is that somewhere for one to look inwards? A good thing to do sometimes but I would argue against a belief that wisdom or understanding or (insert whatever is supposed to be happening for the student here) is primarily found in that way.

Then why did you suggest it for non-Christian children?

There is no need to invoke a particular deity or religion to children to discuss values, ethics, moral challenges or personal growth.

One thing is for sure - that neutral space will not be neutral unless you are literally sitting in silence.

I thought 'religiously neutral' was implied; clearly not. I foolishly mirrored your words without clarifying what I understood by them.

Non-Christians are not expected to leave the room. That's over-stating and suggesting a degree of exclusivity that isn't there.

If their parents don't wish them to partake of
Christian worship then yes, that's exactly what happens.

They can leave if they wish, or they can stay and observe respectfully.

Incorrect. And anyway, why are Christian faith practices more deserving of respectful observance (which may be at odds with their own faiths) than theirs?

I wasn't aware of suggesting that would improve integration. As important as integration is, I have other fish to fry.

Yes, got to collect those young souls while they're impressionable.

I don't want there to be a completely secular society. I don't like the way a 99% secular society is going.

How does the proportion of faith schools in the state sector skew that figure of yours? It seems a little high even in our minority Chrisian society.

I think the more Christianity we have in our institutions, the better. Not because I want to feel privileged or on the inside track, but because our institutions need to be informed and guided by the solid moral principles that the New Testament provides.

Well yes, you do want privilege for your beliefs then, rather than recognising that (a) there's a lot of outdated and dodgy stuff in the New Teatament and (b) sound ethics and morals exist outside of a theocracy. It's disgraceful to suggest otherwise.

JassyRadlett · 27/09/2016 22:55

Also - I asked a few questions; I wonder if you'd do me the courtesy of answering them?

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 27/09/2016 22:58

I see where you're coming from in labelling it as that actually bertrand and I see that you would have to hold the faith to understand how it could be something else. In terms of entitlement - given that I believe we are created beings, I am bound to also believe that God is entitled to worship, no?

Yes, I do admit I'm really glad that all the children at my DD's school are there. It's more than I had hoped for and I'm glad about it. As it happens, we don't live in an area where there is much cultural diversity so virtually no children do choose to opt out - perhaps this would be more of an issue if it was an inner city school and what was on offer for those children was more of a live issue.

It's not having an extra six hours to 'promote' Christianity - school is about much more than the six hours she is there. It's learning in that ethos, being influenced by Christian role models and having Christian principles as the context for the huge developmental leaps that happen at school.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 27/09/2016 23:00

Jassy, I'll just pop onto the vaccine thread and see if you responded to my point there before deciding... Grin

BertrandRussell · 27/09/2016 23:01

And you don't actually care that other people may not want what you want but have no choice in the matter.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 27/09/2016 23:14

Well, jassy, I don't think we're going to get very far. You see Christianity as unhelpful and predatory. I see it as beneficial and in fact vital to society.

I'm not sure where you get off with your morally indignant demands for 'courtesy' after a string of remarks that were at best intended to be confrontational and snide. At worst, downright offensive. Anyway, I'm going to bed in a minute but I'll say this.

Christian values are best summed up in the Sermon on the Mount, I think. Also the concept of sacrificial, self-forgetful love for others and the intrinsic worth of the individual, both to God and to the community. And pacifism - the idea that you don't fight for your own ends - plays a big part.

With respect, the values that our society has built since moving away from Christianity, and the direction our culture is going in, would suggest to me that as a nation we are in fact crap at developing and following sound moral values by ourselves. I'm not suggesting for a moment that individuals are incapable of this but as a nation, it doesn't look great. I don't think society is getting better and I don't think it's inherently good. As flawed as religion has been in the past, I think in many ways it has improved in the UK and I think that we need its presence in the culture.

If you're saying that children who wish to stay and observe Christians practise are made to leave the room, that's interesting. How do you know?

I'm didn't mean to suggest that Christianity in schools should be only for those of explicitly Christian faith (that's why I don't want opt-in worship). I think it should be for everyone except those who don't want it for any reason. Consequently I'm not suggesting that faith in schools should only serve the small minority who are practising Christians but rather be inviting and available to the majority.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 27/09/2016 23:15

That's true in a sense bertrand. I'm sorry you don't want faith in schools but I don't want what you want, no. However, I do care if you don't want your children exposed to faith in my DD's school and I do care about what provision you want for them during that time.

JassyRadlett · 27/09/2016 23:17

I've replied to you now; I missed your post on a fast moving thread.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 27/09/2016 23:18

Twas a joke but thanks.

JassyRadlett · 27/09/2016 23:34

I see it as beneficial and in fact vital to society

How do you explain well-functioning (potentially better-functioning than ours) societies where Christianity plays no role in state institutions?

Christian values are best summed up in the Sermon on the Mount, I think. Also the concept of sacrificial, self-forgetful love for others and the intrinsic worth of the individual, both to God and to the community. And pacifism - the idea that you don't fight for your own ends - plays a big part

I don't think any of those are distinctly Christian - plenty of anthropological evidence that they existed well before the New Teatament and are founding principles of many societies well before Christianity got a look in there.

With respect, the values that our society has built since moving away from Christianity, and the direction our culture is going in, would suggest to me that as a nation we are in fact crap at developing and following sound moral values by ourselves. I'm not suggesting for a moment that individuals are incapable of this but as a nation, it doesn't look great. I don't think society is getting better and I don't think it's inherently good. As flawed as religion has been in the past, I think in many ways it has improved in the UK and I think that we need its presence in the culture

Interesting. Comparing to a time when the country was unquestionably Christian - let's say before WW2, though I'm happy to go back to Victorian times when the CofE's influence was at its peak, I'd say we are a kinder, more tolerant, more peaceful place. We care for those who can't care for themselves better than we have done in the past (though that varies depending on the governing party and their personal ethics, of course), and we attach fewer moral conditions to the provision of help. We treat our children better, and protect them longer. We don't imprison people because of who they love. We allow women equal rights in society and in marriage. We do not separate mothers from their children for the sole crime of being poor. The state doesn't murder people as a punishment. We attach more worth to the value of individuals even if they are different from 'the norm'. We even allow women to speak in churches - somewhere society got to well before the laity of the Church did.

If you're saying that children who wish to stay and observe Christians practise are made to leave the room, that's interesting. How do you know?

Because it isn't the child's choice; it is the parent's, by law. If the parent has opted them out, the child must leave regardless of whether they feel isolated, singled out or any other way about it.

Consequently I'm not suggesting that faith in schools should only serve the small minority who are practising Christians but rather be inviting and available to the majority

You keep talking about 'faith' and Christianity like they're synonymous; is it intentional?

JassyRadlett · 27/09/2016 23:35

Twas a joke but thanks.

Was it? I do aim to answer questions posed to me; I find it quite rude not to. (But then society in general is going to hell in a handcart, etc etc.)

mimishimmi · 27/09/2016 23:43

Didn't stop a certain type of Christian from killing millions of other Christians (and non-Christians) .... war, after war, after war and everyone falls right in line , again and again. Then they get all antsy at us for not reproducing and blaming us for the fall of Western civilization.

Swipe left for the next trending thread