Why is religion forced on all children at school?

[Kateyoz]

We are not religious and so chose a state school not a faith school for our boys but they come home every day singing hymns they are taught in assembly - the school said we can withdraw them from assemblies but why should they be made to miss out? Shouldn't state schools teach all beliefs and not focus on one, or leave religion to the parents and keep it out of school? Feel like mine are being indoctrinated into a religion against our will

And I would suggest that the awe and wonder you're trying to inspire in nature is a form of worship, you're just changing the target. It's also selective ; you could find a great deal in nature to abhore.

I'm not suggesting it's impossible to discuss them Bertrand. Not at all. However I think it's impossible to present them or provide guidance of any sort in relation to them without adopting a position that will inform the way students approach these matters. I would not be thrilled if it was possible to ' discuss ' or 'guide' in a purely neutral way because I don't think, like humanists do, they we carry wisdom around inside us that will assert itself naturally if we just reflect for long enough. Nor do I think our secular society is a guardian of morality that can be trusted to hand down values independently of religion.

I don't think I came up with the word neutral.

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/23/no-religion-outnumber-christians-england-wales-study
The indoctrination isn't working.

Nor is it about showing others for the sake of it (though it could be if done in the wrong spirit). Christians (like Jesus) pray before eating. When there is a group of them gathered, they're instructed to pray communally. Carrying on from this, prayer in schools is the worship offering of a faithful community and education for children of what a faithful community looks life. Until the country completely abandons the attempt to continue as a Christian community, it is an important aspect of communal spiritual life and should be present.

Leroom many of the things you're suggesting are present in assemblies already but they're not neutral, they tie in with Christian values and it is Christian teaching that provides a basis and starting point for these principles. If you want to offer the same thing but with the Christian element...well that's your hard cheese really, but don't think you would be doing something new, or neutral.

How did you do on defining which values are distinctly/uniquely Christian and didn't exist as core components of most societies before Cheistianity, and are not present in non-Christian societies?

Christianity has historically been very good at co-opting and adapting to what matters to the cultures it exists within; the values it espouses (and how they have changed over the centuries) reflect the prevailing culture, rather than informing it.

I would disagree that other faiths get no consideration or means of exercising faith in school /secular establishments-they do, sometimes at the expense of people of other faiths, not that I'm complaining about it.

any consideration they get is "opt-in". There is no school activity where all students, unless they opt out, are expected to face mecca and pray. None.

I am all for protecting people's right to have religious assembly, and I probably go farther than most secularists. I am happy for religious people to do their thing pretty much anywhere or anytime, even in public spaces, as long as my participation isn't expected.

The trouble comes when you expect other people to participate, or give up part of their day, or intrude on their education space. Anything religious participation, as opposed to education, should be opt in. I wouldn't at all object to there being an after school Christian/Muslim club, as it would be opt in.

Yes chilli that has been noted already.

Jessy I whole heartedly disagree with your view. However it is a monumentally huge subject and I don't have time to get into it. Bottom line, Christianity has stuck out like a sore thumb at different times in history and has primarily been an influencer rather than influenced. Though it does of course operate in a changing social context, its message has been subversive relative to many social norms and has challenged prevailing values.

Christianity has also endured periods of being persecuted by the state and has not changed to reflect those pressures.

I would not be thrilled if it was possible to ' discuss ' or 'guide' in a purely neutral way because I don't think, like humanists do, they we carry wisdom around inside us that will assert itself naturally if we just reflect for long enough. Nor do I think our secular society is a guardian of morality that can be trusted to hand down values independently of religion.

that's just a lot of "I think". it's your opinion. there is no reason for anyone to take it seriously (I mean, your opinion should not be incorporated into policy).

You have to realize it isn't universally accepted. In fact, I quite abhor some of the basic tenets of Christianity. It's not a good basis for morality at all.

Where does that leave us? Why don't you keep your Christian practices where they belong? It's not the school. My guess is you don't ask your employer to have collective worship either, despite your assertion the religious practice must done daily.

What exactly do you do at work at lunch time when you need to pray?

Work is a different environment for a different type of gathering IMO. But you're right, all policy is based on someone's opinion and mine happens to coincide with current policy.

So basically you are saying that Christians are by definition more ethical, moral and with a more advanced sense of wonder than non Christians. Can you really not see how offensive that is?

Work is a different environment for a different type of gathering IMO. But you're right, all policy is based on someone's opinion and mine happens to coincide with current policy.

so, christianity is flexible enough that you don't need to do christian things at work, but not flexible enough that you must do them at school (it still begs the question of why non-christians should care). So your earlier statement that religious participation is daily and everywhere isn't true? You do realize how arbitrary that sounds right (work vs school)? it does rather sound like you are making it up as you go along.

I just wish on these threads christians would come out and say that they aren't happy with simply practicing christianity, they want others to participate.

Can you really not see how offensive that is?

I actually don't care how offensive it is. I have a thick skin. The problem is that it's an indefensible position. My guess is that most religious people think that about their religion, but only Christians (in this country) expect others to accept it.

Jessy I whole heartedly disagree with your view. However it is a monumentally huge subject and I don't have time to get into it.

'You're wrong, but I won't provide objective evidence of the alternative. And I'll misspell your name while doing so.'

Bottom line, Christianity has stuck out like a sore thumb at different times in history

Unarguably. Usually in ways of which it should be significantly ashamed.

and has primarily been an influencer rather than influenced

Extraordinarily questionable claim.

Christianity has also endured periods of being persecuted by the state and has not changed to reflect those pressures

Except for all those times when it's taken the pragmatic view - which helps to explain why Christian values and the relative weight afforded to different parts of the belief system in different countries and between different faiths.

Out of interest, are you CofE?

Bertrand Did I say Christians were better at wonder, morality etc? Or did I say that the suggestion of what assemblies could be doing were being done already but including the Christian teaching that has traditionally been the source of such values? You do understand that anyone who holds a belief system of any kind (even atheism) unless they are truly relativistic (very rare and arguably impossible) will think their beliefs are superior in some way? As someone has pointed out, that's not the issue. It's what it means for others that I think you have the problem with.

Of course school is different from work -totally different goals. School is an artificial community constructed to develop children in as well rounded a way as possible. It wouldn't be life without a religious element ; spiritual needs would go unmet. Work is not the same. It's a group of people there to do a job and go home. No developing minds. No microcosm of the world. No real community.

jessy In light of your socially challenged posting style which I can only assume is unintentional since you expect to be treated quite differently yourself l, I think you will have got off lightly if a mis spelt name is all you have to complain of!

So do you think that schools in countries where the church and state are separate are significantly worse places for children to learn?

Oh dear, 'socially challenged?' Is this a sign of those Christian values we should be emulating? If pointing out where you have made unsubstantiated statements and displayed a breathtaking level of arrogance and insensitivity is 'socially challenged' then sign me up. As long as the status quo is divisive and discriminatory I'll challenge it, along with the comfortable and complacent advocates of inequality for their own gain - even if it won't advantage my own kids.

Funny how something as simple as pointing out a small error brings out the insults. I'm always ok with being told I've made a mistake.

Why do you think I want to be treated 'quite differently'? I'm quite happy for people to practise whatever faiths they like. I'd simply prefer if taxpayers weren't paying for one to be prioritised.

Oh and ouch! You still misspelled it, which I assume was intentional. That's put me in my place.

Blimey. I think I'll just go back to thinking that many Christians are just colossally arrogant and entitled

Indeed.

You're welcome to challenge anything Jassy, I just find that your habit copying and pasting every a post line by line, making snide comments about the post as you go (rather than engaging with the points to the poster) is cheap and bullying. Meanwhile you throw a fit if your username is misspelt, despite its lack of similarity to any recognisable word. Playground stuff. But if you can't see it, you can't see it.

Bertrand After all, that's what you're most comfortable thinking and it's always nice to have our prejudices confirmed for us, isn't it?

I'm always ok with being told I've made a mistake.

You've made a mistake. You're wrong about everything. Especially the bit about religion in schools.

As far as challenging religion in schools goes, I'm not sure you have challenged it so much as trotted out a few arguments and then failed to engage with the counter-arguments. And you are not challenging it by talking about it on an internet forum. Sorry to disappoint but I can influence this issue not a jot. If you see yourself as a defender of the secular in schools, your comments would be better addressed to someone who actually has something to do with schools.

To be honest, I have trouble taking seriously anyone who accuses me of not engaging when they refused to answer numerous questions asked in good faith about some of your statements and claims.

Huge apologies if by engaging with what you said by replying to what you said, you felt I wasn't engaging with what you said.

As for the 'snide' tone - no, not intended, for the most part. I'll admit to getting a little frustrated when you refused to actually engage with what I was asking or saying. Naturally enough.

Simply repeating 'you're wrong, but I can't be bothered to tell you why or provide a reasoned discussion except to tell you again how wonderful I think Christianity is and how it should be in the centre of national life' isn't engaging. It's refusing to discuss unless it's exactly on your terms.

If you see yourself as a defender of the secular in schools, your comments would be better addressed to someone who actually has something to do with schools.

Yes, I do that too, as well as challenging unsubstantiated nonsense on web forums. Your mind may not be changed, but you never know who might be reading.