Why is religion forced on all children at school?

[Kateyoz]

We are not religious and so chose a state school not a faith school for our boys but they come home every day singing hymns they are taught in assembly - the school said we can withdraw them from assemblies but why should they be made to miss out? Shouldn't state schools teach all beliefs and not focus on one, or leave religion to the parents and keep it out of school? Feel like mine are being indoctrinated into a religion against our will

[snakesalive]

I'm catholic ...my kids went to a catholic school...and for that every reason,I say religion should have no place in any school ...no religion in any school

[mathsmum314]

anyone who holds a belief system of any kind (even atheism)... will think their beliefs are superior in some way?*
Fact check: atheists do not have a belief system, so how can they think it is superior?

It wouldn't be life without a religious element ; spiritual needs would go unmet Ummm wtf, is this poster for real lol
What spiritual needs does a 12 year old running around a play ground have?

[BertrandRussell]

"Bertrand After all, that's what you're most comfortable thinking and it's always nice to have our prejudices confirmed for us, isn't it?"

No. I like the human race very much, and I find it very disappointing when they are arrogant and selfish. I would much rather have been proved wrong.

[gonetoseeamanaboutadog]

Mathsmum

Your kids do have spiritual needs and the best schools will engage with this and try to meet them.

Atheism is indeed a belief system. You're thinking of agnosticism I think. And even that requires a certain level of commitment to believing it's impossible to know what, if anything, there is too believe in.

Bertrand I suggest you'd be much happier if you addressed the implicit superiority of your own position and took some responsibility for designing what you would like to happen instead of religion in schools.

[JassyRadlett]

A number of people have set out what they'd like to happen instead of collective worship in schools - I wonder why you are ignoring that?

You're also wrong about atheism being a belief system. I've avoided saying 'you're wrong' on things that are a matter of opinion, or on yor religious beliefs, but there's external evidence for this one.

That approach only works if you think religious belief is automatic and innate in humans, and therefore everyone must have something in that space because theistic belief is the default.

Again, there's quite a bit of anthropological evidence to suggest that isn't he case.

It's an absence of belief, not a belief system. I don't believe in any gods. There are plenty of other things I don't believe in without that lack of belief constituting a 'belief system'.

I often wonder if it's a failure of imagination - ie that the idea that other people don't have this space in their lives occupied by religion and the belief in a deity and that deity's teachings is so difficult to understand that those people try to crowbar atheism into the construct they are comfortable with - ie religious belief.

I'm happy to be told I'm wrong by those who maintain that atheism is a belief system (albeit one that doesn't involve any beliefs).

As it happens I've lived with both, and there is a big difference between a belief system (which requires faith) and a lack of belief.

[gonetoseeamanaboutadog]

I did respond to your suggestions jas. My last comments weren't addressed to you.

Hard evidence, you say? Where is it? Will you be providing a link?

[JassyRadlett]

To be fair, Bertrand gave at least as much detail on what she thought should/could happen for non-religious assemblies as you did for what should be provided for non-Christian children.

Plenty of stuff out there on the history of atheistic belief and philosophies, the evolutionary factors that support religious belief (but don't necessarily require it) and I'll post some links shortly - between appointments at present.

[chilipepper20]

Hard evidence, you say? Where is it? Will you be providing a link?

you often see thrown about that atheism and religion are different sides of the same coin. but they are not. atheism isn't a belief system, just like not believing in leprachauns is not a belief system. The difference is that we don't have a word like aleprachaunist, probably because it would describe us all.

[gonetoseeamanaboutadog]

jas I'd prefer not to be deluged with interesting reading, just the hard evidence specifically mentioned. Also don't understand your need to repeatedly speak for another poster.

I agree it seems likely that Britain will stop being a nominally Christian country eventually but I don't agree it will be a good thing or that a secular morality will step in adequately-it hasn't been stepping up in recent years as Christian influence wanes. But for now, Christian faith in schools has a right to be there and to be at the forefront of school life. It is ensuring that children are able to develop spiritually and those who might otherwise have no exposure to the faith are able to encounter it. That's a very positive thing for children and the well-being of this country. Children like adults are spiritual as well as intellectual, social and physical beings and the assumption that they will benefit from the opportunity to practice the Christian faith and find guidance and support there is the only logical and responsible conclusion to come to in a Christian country, especially when the country is so obviously suffering from a growing lack of moral direction.

When we look at the dangers and pressures facing children today and the frightening absence of moral values in the media and games they have access to, it is difficult to see how having a chip on your shoulder against religion could possibly justify the withdrawal of one of the few remaining sources of sound moral principles and help for children, many of whom do not come from homes where any other opportunities for spiritual learning will be offered.

There is widespread agreement that a growing number of children seem unacquainted with the concepts of right and wrong...that is much more dangerous than being exposed to a bible reading offering guidance on those very issues.

[BertrandRussell]

"Bertrand I suggest you'd be much happier if you addressed the implicit superiority of your own position and took some responsibility for designing what you would like to happen instead of religion in schools."

Happy to. But you "don't want to be deluged in interesting reading"

And atheism is not a belief system.

[MyFriendsCallMeOh]

We are not religious at all and my dcs are at a secular school in the USA and religion is not mentioned at all. Ever. They celebrate Santa at Christmas which makes me sad.

[sandbagsatdawn]

My kids go to a non church school and generally their assemblies are secular and don't feature prayers or hymns. I personally think this should be the case in all non church schools. They do sing Christmas carols and do a nativity play though. We make a big deal at home about the fact these are just stories that some people
believe and Daddy and I don't.

Re All things bright and beautiful, I object to it on the grounds it teaches creationism, which is in direct conflict with the proven scientific explanation of evolution, which my kids have learned about. Ie it's total nonsense.

[JasperDamerel]

Gone - do you think that it is right for a school to tell a seven year old that her parents would suffer in hell for eternity but that by rejecting them she could escape their fate?

Do you think that an ordinary, non-faith school should tell a gay teenager that he must spend his life alone?

Do you think that a child should be told in school that their faith is bad and wrong and untrue and they are not fully a part of the school community if they practise it?

Do you think that a school should encourage children to tell lies?

Do you think that the school should undermine the values of a child's parents?

Because all of these things are experienced by children in the course of worship in school.

[JassyRadlett]

jas I'd prefer not to be deluged with interesting reading, just the hard evidence specifically mentioned.

Hmm. I mentioned 'external evidence' and 'quite a bit of anthropological evidence that suggests' - the 'hard' is an adjective inserted by you, and I suspect you may be looking for something quite different from what I offered. I'm unclear how you're going to evaluate whether the evidence base meets this test you've set without reading some of it.

Also don't understand your need to repeatedly speak for another poster.

Because it's a discussion open to all, and because the misrepresentation of others bothers me.

I agree it seems likely that Britain will stop being a nominally Christian country eventually but I don't agree it will be a good thing or that a secular morality will step in adequately-it hasn't been stepping up in recent years as Christian influence wanes.

In what way? Genuinely interested. In recent years we have seen huge advances for equality for women and LBGT people, for example, which a number of Christian churches argued strongly against.

With so many things, I guess it depends on whether you see these as progressive advances or contributing to the problems of society.

Meanwhile, I look at Ireland as a cautionary tale on Christianity having too much power in the state - and the negative impact on women's lives, for example, even if they don't share those religious beliefs.

[JassyRadlett]

There is widespread agreement that a growing number of children seem unacquainted with the concepts of right and wrong...that is much more dangerous than being exposed to a bible reading offering guidance on those very issues

Sorry - on this, I know I've irritated you by asking for information on what statements like this are based upon, but I'm interested in the evidence base on the statement here.

And of course we'll disagree on whether the automatic/best/only answer to meeting any shortfalls in morality and ethical understanding among children is Christianity. In my own experience young children respond better to explanations of why certain behaviours are good and beneficial, rather than 'because I said', and a number of child psychologists seem to agree.

I imagine that the same goes for 'because God/Jesus said'.

[chilipepper20]

gonetoseeamanaboutadog

except there is no evidence whatsoever for what you have said, within Britain or outside.

If you look at crime statistics in Britain, they slightly favour people with no religion (that is, people with no religion are underepresented in the prison system). This is very slight, so I wouldn't use this as an argument that no religion gives good moral values. Why would it? Being an atheist or areligious is different from being a humanist.

But, certainly, religion is no defence against criminal behaviour. In fact, more serious crimes are done disproportionately by the religious.

So, while you assert religion gives a strong moral basis, there really is no evidence for it, and correlation seems to go the other way slightly (at least in crime statistics).

[gonetoseeamanaboutadog]

Jassy (my auto doesn't like your name BTW) I didn't realise your external evidence wouldn't be hard -why refer to it if not? Have you actually had much experience with mature Christian faith? 'because God said' is not how it goes. It's primarily relational, very grounded in empathic thinking and cause to effect. Nor is faith in school presented in anything like the traditional Catholic faith would have been in Ireland in the past. That's clutching at straws. And Britain is in no danger of repeating that model. There is little point discussing faith if we're not referring to the same thing. Similar comments to Jasper; I haven't heard of contemporary school worship making any of those points although I can see it would be easier to vilify if it did. Re problems with children's morality today, is everywhere and I can't quite believe you would need evidence but I'm not in a position to provide it just now -suggest you open the newspaper and read about Britain's new serial rapist who has set a new record by being 11.

[sandbagsatdawn]

I love chili's theory about all religion in schools being opt in, with a christian club, muslim club etc they can choose to go to if they wish.

Worship (which as others have noted) is different from RE, is entirely unnecessary in school. And non-religious assemblies are perfectly valid. My 6 year olds class today had an assembly which parents could attend where they sang a song about respecting each other, loving our families and friends and helping other people. And such themes as kindness, respect, honesty and so on are what their assemblies are all about. No mention of 'our' God, or the idea we should be thankful to any deity for anything.

A Muslim boy in his class recently brought his prayer mat in and told them all about how they face Mecca and about other Muslim customs. If Christianity or any other religion was introduced in the same spirit ie "This is what we do/believe" rather than "this is what you should all do/believe" then I would be perfectly happy with that.

[JassyRadlett]

Jassy (my auto doesn't like your name BTW) I didn't realise your external evidence wouldn't be hard -why refer to it if not.

A great deal of scientific research isn't absolutely conclusive - but leads to more questions, or challenges orthodoxies, or presents alternatives that require more research or probing. Given the idea that faith is the default human condition, evidence that suggests this is not and may never have been the case is useful.

Have you actually had much experience with mature Christian faith? 'because God said' is not how it goes

Yes, I do. But I'd suggest what young children take away from Christian instruction in schools is not representative of mature Christian faith either. From my own experience 'because God said' was a pretty close approximation of what I took away from primary school. Equally, do you think that by presenting these things as 'Christian' teaching, you might be conveying the message to non-Christian children that these ideas may not apply to them?

On the issue of Catholicism and 'it could never happen here' - our own laws have only become more liberal as the influence of the Christian church has waned and the CofE among others have consistently argued against that liberalisation. 'We could never be like Ireland' is a bit too complacent for my tastes.

On children's morals - you said there was 'widespread agreement' that a 'growing number' of children seem unacquainted with right and wrong which suggests a bit more thought than 'what newspaper editors think might sell newspapers'. I thought you might be basing that on something fairly object if. Individual cases of appalling crimes committed by children are not evidence of a growing problem, I could just as easily point you to similar cases from Victorian times.

And you'll forgive me if experience has taught me not to believe our newspapers give us a balanced idea of society.

[JasperDamerel]

Gone, are you honestly, seriously trying to argue that the link between organised religion and child sex abuse is that religious participation prevents people from committing acts of sexual violence?

[JasperDamerel]

I feel obliged to point out that some of the UK is in Ireland.

[JassyRadlett]

Sandbags, that sounds pretty brilliant.

[MammouthTask]

I gave to lol at the idea that school are teaching a mature approach to Christian faith.
You'll have to tell that to my dcs who have both become anti Christian/anti faith thinks to the crap involvement of the school.

What I'm thinking here is stories about Christian faith in his the sea open in front of them, the bread that multiplied etc, all presented as THE truth abs things have happened. Not a word of the meaning of the story etc. Maybe unsurprisingly, theyve rejected it. They've even rejected all faiths on the grounds 'it's just like the Christianity we've been taught at school and therefore a lot of rubbish' (their words not mines btw!)

So I'm now finding myself having to teach them that yes it is ok to believe and gave a faith, that no these people aren't stupid. In effect making a whole case FOR religion and believing in God when
I am a true atheist myself...
And I do that because I want them
To chose what system they adhere to. Not being brainwashed either way about it.

Or you can gave the case of a family member so convinced that you had to believe that he looked horrified at my dcs saying 'but you can't say you don't believe. You'll end up in prison'. That child was about 20yo at the time...
So yes religion taught like this is so badly done that it's better not done tbh.

[chilipepper20]

Re problems with children's morality today, is everywhere and I can't quite believe you would need evidence but I'm not in a position to provide it just now -suggest you open the newspaper and read about Britain's new serial rapist who has set a new record by being 11.

except crime, especially violent crime, has been falling for quite some time now. Instead of opening dodgy papers, it better to read crime statistics.

[mathsmum314]

gonetoseeamanaboutadog

Could you tell me what these 'spiritual needs' are that my DC is missing out on. He seems as well rounded, happy, intelligent and emotional etc as every other child his age. Its like your saying he is missing out on his fairy needs, unicorn needs, or little green men needs. wtf are spiritual needs?

Atheism is NOT a belief (system), it is the rejection of theist claims in supernatural beings, based on the current evidence, as has been well pointed out.

Agnosticism is not knowing that a god exists, please use a dictionary and stop using words you dont know the meaning of.

Britain will stop being a nominally Christian country eventually
It already has, only around 1% of the UK goes to church every week (2014). It would be correct to say that the UK is nominally a culturally christian country, but that will eventually end as well.

Secular morality has stepped up to replace religion as a better way to live, it has given us human rights and courts to defend them, it has given us equal rights in marriage, sex, race and religion. It has given us a generation that has never been at war, minimum wages, workers rights, a welfare state, freedom of speech, choice over what happens to our bodies, freedom from guilt, advances in science, the list goes on and on. Why would anyone want to live in a theocracy where priests tell you what you can do, think, wear and oppress your whole life.

In schools we can replace replace religion, with Maths, English, Literature, History, Physics, Biology, Chemistry, Geography, Music, Philosophy, Sex Education, Relationship Education, Personal & Social Development, the ability to determine right or wrong without having to ask a priest... or wait that's exactly what good schools do now! Thank god

Why would anyone want to go to a religious school that teaches inequality, homophobia, guilt, suspension of critical thinking, indoctrination using chants, hymns or mantras. The morality of 2000 year old goat herders. The discipline of fear of hell a priest abusing children and the the church covering it up. NO sex education...

If this country is suffering from a lack of moral direction then I challenge you to go live in the dark ages and tell me how it compares to now! If your children have access to media that is inappropriate then its parents who are letting down their children, what has god got to do with it? Why doesn't he just zap all the inappropriate media out of existence, like the bible teaches to slaughter your enemies. Oh yea, it doesn't because it doesn't exist.

Britain's new serial rapist who has set a new record by being 11
Yea, guess that boy will grow up to be a priest and bugger the choir boys, because its ok when a man of god does it? Hows that working for ya?

There is widespread agreement that a growing number of children seem unacquainted with the concepts of right and wrong
I was able to use a babel fish to translate this, turn out it means, "There is widespread agreement amongst hard core bible bashers that a growing number of children seem unacquainted with the concept that 2000 years ago god raped Mary to give birth to himself/son so he could perform human blood sacrifice on himself/son, to forgive us for sins he gave us, to protect us from his retribution and then resurrect himself so he could disappear on a floating cloud..."
Yip those church schools are the way forward .