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Education

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Why is religion forced on all children at school?

323 replies

Kateyoz · 22/09/2016 09:46

We are not religious and so chose a state school not a faith school for our boys but they come home every day singing hymns they are taught in assembly - the school said we can withdraw them from assemblies but why should they be made to miss out? Shouldn't state schools teach all beliefs and not focus on one, or leave religion to the parents and keep it out of school? Feel like mine are being indoctrinated into a religion against our will

OP posts:
chilipepper20 · 27/09/2016 23:55

That's true in a sense bertrand. I'm sorry you don't want faith in schools but I don't want what you want, no. However, I do care if you don't want your children exposed to faith in my DD's school and I do care about what provision you want for them during that time.

there are lots of lovely gorgeous old buildings in this country which are in fact designed for that activity (faith). They are called churches. In fact, every Sunday morning you are all invited to talk about all aspects of Christianity in one of these lovely buildings. I have been to them and many are absolutely stunning. The advantage of these Sunday morning meetings in churches is that everyone there comes by choice (well, except possibly the children), so you can all be comfortable in the knowledge that everyone here is happy to be here to discuss these things.

So, why do people insist on wasting my children's time with this at a state school? I don't want to stop you from having Christian fun at home, at church, or even a park (as long as it doesn't take over the park space) but does it have to intrude on my child's education?

I see absolutely zero value in teaching faith (as opposed to teaching about faith). In fact, I think it has worse than zero value as it teaches kids bad values like accepting things without evidence. You may want that for your child, and I won't stop you from teaching faith to your child. Perhaps I should be given the same courtesy.

chilipepper20 · 27/09/2016 23:58

Christians are obliged to 'opt out' of many, many aspects of modern life because a lot of it has a poor moral basis. It is a struggle to keep Christian values

those struggles are your own personal choice. That I have less school choice than a member of the CofE is not.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 28/09/2016 00:48

Because that's not how practising a religious faith works. It has to be part of every aspect of life. The believer is morally obliged to do this. You can't compartmentalise a life of faith.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 28/09/2016 00:50

I don't give a monkeys if you reproduce or not, mini. Don't know any Christian who would.

chilipepper20 · 28/09/2016 01:06

Because that's not how practising a religious faith works. It has to be part of every aspect of life. The believer is morally obliged to do this. You can't compartmentalise a life of faith.

that is in fact how practising religious faith works for the UK's sikhs, jews and muslims. they go to state schools with full knowledge that their faiths don't get any special treatment. that is also how practising faith works for Christians, with the exception of schools. Employers can't just get up in the middle of the day and say it's now a time to have a few words of a broadly christian nature. I can't just declare that everyone in the park I am in will now participate in an activity of broadly christian nature and those who choose not to participate can leave.

What you are saying is that not only do you want to practise your faith, which is absolutely your right, but you want others to participate, or opt out at some cost.

mrz · 28/09/2016 06:36

And schools can't say everyone takes part ...there's an opt out

Ankleswingers · 28/09/2016 06:43

This thread has made me feel sad and I wish I hadn't read it Sad

JassyRadlett · 28/09/2016 07:08

On what basis, Ankle?

BertrandRussell · 28/09/2016 08:15

Well, one thing I've gained from this thread is a glimmer of an insight into what it must have felt like to be the target of missionaries......Frankly, it!s a wonder more of them weren't eaten................

JassyRadlett · 28/09/2016 08:30

Grin 'I know better than you do! I will respect your culture and beliefs except of course mine are better, and will benefit you, so you'll need to observe mine and fit yours in around mine, OK?'

JassyRadlett · 28/09/2016 08:31

Tbh, though, Bertrand, it's a little refreshing to have someone on one of these threads who is actually honest about why they want Christianity prioritised in schools.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 28/09/2016 09:12

I would disagree that other faiths get no consideration or means of exercising faith in school /secular establishments-they do, sometimes at the expense of people of other faiths, not that I'm complaining about it. However you're right in thinking that while I respect the people involved and wish to make space for them to practice their faith, I do so on the unspoken understanding that I believe their faith is mistaken and shouldn't occupy a mainstream position.

There is an arrogance about that certainly but you will find everyone, whether of faith or not, believes the same thing. It's just less obviously arrogant to say a neutral space is more ' right ' than my faith. BTW what is going to happen in these neutral spaces that will be truly neutral but at the same time of value to the student!?

It's easy to criticise my views but in your reluctance to answer that you're rather proving my point that Christianity is needed to provide morality and direction in our schools where there would otherwise be a bit of a vacuum (or some vaguely humanist waffle with an unexamined but equally arrogant premise).

You may find that many children of s variety of faiths are left out of the 'neutral space ' because it in some way conflicts with what their religion teaches.

mathsmum314 · 28/09/2016 09:27

Christianity is needed to provide morality and direction in our schools where there would otherwise be a bit of a vacuum

What nonsence

Genevieva · 28/09/2016 09:27

The Religious Education teacher at the Church school I went to taught us all about the Sea of Faith movement, Don Cupitt and Anthony Freeman. They might have been controversial for daring to articulate their opinions so clearly, but the reality is that the Church of England actively supports this attitude among the people it comes in contact with. It recognises the desire of non-church goers to marry in church and christen their children. It provides pastoral support in hospitals and prisons without pushing a religious agenda. In church schools the focus is on inclusiveness, with a few hymns and some moral reflection on loving your neighbour, illustrated with a bible story. There is no guilt tripping on being a good Christian or having faith. I think Christianity provides a very light cultural backdrop for primary education and that children benefit from listening to ancient morality tales and from participating in festivals that mark the turning of the year and encourage us to feel grateful for all that we have.

As adults they will probably be agnostic or atheist, but will be able to walk into the National Gallery and recognise that the Supper at Emmaus by Caravaggio is a painting of Jesus blessing a meal with two fisherman disciples. The only adults I know who are very religious were denied access to faith-based activities as children. Religious was something forbidden an alluring.

JassyRadlett · 28/09/2016 10:07

My reluctance to answer what?

BertrandRussell · 28/09/2016 10:19

When you reject the idea of a neutral space (which I think is actually your expression) you seem to be suggesting that it is impossible to discuss values and morality or consider the big questions of life or even to sit quietly to still the mind and reflect unless you do them in a Christian context. Which is obviously wrong.

BertrandRussell · 28/09/2016 10:20

Sorry, that was to gone

JasperDamerel · 28/09/2016 11:28

Nobody is objecting to religious education, or to children learning bible stories.

What they object to is worship in schools.

I take my children to church on Sundays. We have prayers at bedtime, and before some meals. We celebrate religious festivals at home. They go to a school which pretty much manages to ignore the requirement for daily worship, and I am very glad.

They still get plenty of opportunities for religious practice and worship. As many of the defenders of worship in schools have said, religion is often about doing rather than saying, and it is perfectly possible (and in many cases preferable) to quietly get on with it rather than making a show of faith.

Their friends and teachers are from a variety of faiths and none, and not a single pupil or member of staff is required to tell lies in order to participate in the life of the school, which is, let's face it, what participating in Christian worship means to an atheist.

I far prefer a school assembly which encourages thoughtfulness, really listening to others, and honesty than one which encourages putting conformity ahead of honest belief.

mimishimmi · 28/09/2016 11:46

chilipepper has nailed it. This has nothing to do with faith, everything with trying to 'show others' which is the dominant culture. It's funny because Jesus said not to be showy about religious practise..

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others

derxa · 28/09/2016 12:01

The U.K. Is officially a CofE country. Is it?

derxa · 28/09/2016 12:08

The Queen is the head of the Church of England which has no jurisdiction whatsoever over the Church of Scotland. The Scottish education system is completely separate.

LeRoom · 28/09/2016 12:11

what is going to happen in these neutral spaces that will be truly neutral but at the same time of value to the student!?

Here you are: gonetosee
Art and music can contribute to the spiritual dimension and demonstrate human creativity and the ability to share with and inspire others. Just to look or listen with an introduction from an enthusiast can be enough.
The natural world is an excellent theme – its wonder, interdependence, and co-operation. Pictures or objects (e.g. fossils) can provoke awe and wonder – or just look out of the window or listen to natural sounds outside.
Poetry and prose – fiction and non-fiction – your favourites. Or ask the English department for ideas for particular themes.
Anecdotes from your own experience, especially your school days, can be enthralling for pupils, who benefit from reminders that teachers have lives outside school and were once young (but make sure you have a point to make).
The daily news can be a rich source of assembly themes. Good news about human achievements can inspire students. Events can stimulate moral questions and raise issues of rights and responsibilities. If you do need a last-minute theme, take the front page of a daily paper, choose a story from it, outline the facts, read extracts, and highlight some moral questions, or extrapolate from the issues involved to wonder what will have changed in, say, 20 years’ time when pupils will have adult responsibilities.
Shared human values – see the Golden Rule poster, or look at some of the humanist perspectives documents for some topical ideas.
What sort of person do you want to be? Kind / unkind? Trustworthy and respected / dishonest and disliked ?… What would you like to be remembered for towards the end of your life?
Pupils can lead excellent assemblies. Each set of pupils due to lead one will need a teacher to brief them, be available for guidance and rehearsals, and be there on the day to support them.
Visitors can be refreshing, but need to be well briefed, and should be vetted for suitability – usually a role for the Head. For example, evangelical groups that proselytise to children and young people should not be invited to deliver assemblies.
Days to remember: There are plenty of non-religious events to mark in assemblies. The anniversaries of famous people’s births or deaths, or of historical events, can be used to introduce inspirational stories or figures who otherwise would remain unknown to your pupils. You can use birthdays, yours or someone else’s , or the school’s , to reflect on new beginnings, time passing, or ageing.
Festivals: Many Christian festivals adopted earlier pagan or seasonal events, and many people participate in a range of cultural and religious festivals. This can be interesting to explore in assemblies.
Events: Astronomical events such as eclipses and comets, and natural events such as volcanoes, can inspire awe and wonder, both at the size and power of nature and at our growing understanding of natural phenomena.
Charity and awareness days: Almost every day of the year has been adopted by a charity or awareness raising group which would be only too glad to provide information about themselves.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 28/09/2016 12:18

Leroom many of the things you're suggesting are present in assemblies already but they're not neutral, they tie in with Christian values and it is Christian teaching that provides a basis and starting point for these principles. If you want to offer the same thing but with the Christian element...well that's your hard cheese really, but don't think you would be doing something new, or neutral.

Disagree with you that art is neutral. It's not remotely.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 28/09/2016 12:18

Christian element removed

BertrandRussell · 28/09/2016 12:19
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