Why is religion forced on all children at school?

[Kateyoz]

We are not religious and so chose a state school not a faith school for our boys but they come home every day singing hymns they are taught in assembly - the school said we can withdraw them from assemblies but why should they be made to miss out? Shouldn't state schools teach all beliefs and not focus on one, or leave religion to the parents and keep it out of school? Feel like mine are being indoctrinated into a religion against our will

[ReallyTired]

I think that the number of cultural Christians (Ie. They follow Christian traditions, but don't necessarily believe in God) is quite high. Most assemblies are completely harmless. There is a moral story, a nice song and maybe a few notices. What is the point in getting into a flap about it.

[JustRichmal]

"All things Bright and Beautiful" just about encapsulates all I dislike about religion. It is about not questioning the Status Quo:

The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
God made them high and lowly,
And ordered their estate.

Justification for votes only for rich gentry and workhouses for the poor all wrapped up in a catchy little tune children could sing merrily about.

[CocktailQueen]

This has lots of information: www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/190260/DCSF-00114-2010.pdf

By law schools have to include RE in the curriculum. RE doesn't just discuss Christianity; it discusses all the major world religions as well as ethics and moral issues. You get to discuss things in it that you don't in other subjects.

As for assemblies, what would you prefer? I think it's good for dc to have the chance to sing as much as possible, and Britain is a C of E country, hence singing Xian songs. Am sure they also sing more secular ones too.

You have the chance at home to discuss your beliefs - or lack of them - with your dc and to tell them about other religions/being atheist etc., so they can make their own minds up in due course.

[RiverTam]

It's not the schools fault that you are ignorant of the fact that all schools are meant to have assemblies of a broadly Christian nature. This comes up every bloody year on MN.

FWIW I (catholic, I think these days I would call myself a cultural Christian) went to a CofE school (private, so all parents had chosen it for their DC) with a good number of Jewish, Hindu and the odd Muslim child. No one withdrew from religious assembly, no one withdrew from RE o level, and no one was indoctrinated into converting to CofE.

Christianity informs a large amount of our history and culture. Being ignorant of it is just - ignorant. You don't have to believe but you sure as fuck should know and try to understand.

[CocktailQueen]

JustRichmal - 'All things bright and beautiful' was written in 1848 when society was very different. I dare say, if you had been born then you may have shared his views. People are a product of the time in which they live - generally.

[ReallyTired]

Most the songs are fairly harmless. They are songs that won't overly annoy Hindus, Jews or Muslims.

Dd sang a song about punctuation that had no religion in it whatsoever. Such songs should be banned for being too cheesy.

[Buzzardbird]

You don't have to send your child to a C of E school, but if you choose to, you should accept that it is a C of E school. My child (who is not Christian) really enjoys the songs and we discuss the difference between what people choose to believe in and those that have a more scientific approach.

As PP said, this thread comes up every year and soon it will be the angst about letter your DC be in the nativity.

It's the children that miss out.

[LeRoom]

The idea that Britain is still a CofE country comes from the leading and imprecise census question: "What is your religion?". Many cultural christians tick "Christianity", leading to the disparity between the census data, putting Christianity at over 70% and the highly respected British Social Attitudes survey, published in 2011, which found that 51% of those questioned professed having no religion.

I think we'd all accept that people in the UK hold a wide range of beliefs and all can be practised freely. Why subject school children to one particular one?

If we're going to hang on to what the prevailing religion has been in the past, shouldn't we be giving ancestor worship and paganism a fair look-in?

[OliviaBensonOnAGoodDay]

It is indoctrination. It's the definition of indoctrination.

For the posters saying it's not - if your child came home and started talking about singing in, for example, Arabic, and being made to say prayers to Allah - what would you say then?

[notanetter]

I don't 'get in a flap' about it; and I'm certainly not ignorant.

I simply do not agree with the obligation upon schools to include "daily collective worship, wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian nature" in their curriculum, and will continue to express that opinion where it is relevant, until or unless the policy is revised.

Cheers.

[JustRichmal]

CocktailQueen, I would still rather not have children singing cheerily about it.. Busses still have wheels and rabbits still get flies on their noses, what is wrong with singing about that instead?

[niminypiminy]

JustRichmal nobody ever sings that verse of All things bright and beautiful anymore. I can't even remember singing it as a child in the 1970s. It's best to argue about things that actually happen! Most school assembly songs have been written in the last ten years especially for school assemblies.

CofE clergy who take school assemblies in schools are told by the CofE to say 'I am going to say a prayer and if you want to join in, say Amen at the end' precisely to point out that no one is being made to pray.

Mind you, whenever I come home from doing an assembly my atheist DH. Always says 'had a good day's indoctrinating dear?'

[BertrandRussell]

Because Christian privilege.

[Bobochic]

We sang that verse of All Things Bright and Beautiful at school.

It's IME an excellent way of introducing DC to how ideas permeate and are accepted by society and also how ideas change over time. Straightforward cliche easy to analyse!

[JasperDamerel]

'You don't have to send your child to a C of E school, but if you choose to, you should accept that it is a C of E school'.

Except that for many famies, the only state school available is a C of E school. OK, they could move house, or home educate or start earning enough money to send their child to an independent school, but I wouldn't describe a parent who sends their child to the only state school for which they are in catchment as making an active choice to give their child a telion-based education.

And the religious worship requirement applies to non-church schools, too.

Does it harm the children? It did me no good when I was repeatedly told by teachers and visiting speakers at my school that many of my loved ones were sinners who would suffer torture in hell for eternity. It wasn't great for my friend with a disability who was told that God had chosen to make her suffer. It's also been quite hard for the people I know who had pretty grim experiences of religion in their own childhood to be pressured by their children into attending church services.

I think that well-taught RE is a good thing, and that a familiarity with Christianity is of great benefit, not just to those with an interest in theology, but also to anyone who wants to study Wedtern literature, history or art history.

But the requirement for worship of a broadly Christian nature in all schools doesn't reflect our society, and I think it does more harm than good.

[Radiatorvalves]

I really can't get worked up about it. I went to a school where we had to sing hymns and I am an agnostic. Live and let live. My DSs have been christened, mainly because of tradition as opposed to belief. Their primary school has taught them the basics of all religions (which is very important).

DS had to do RE homework this week on, "If God is all powerful, why do people suffer". The cynicism in a 12 year old was awesome to behold.

[WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid]

It's the schools commitment to Pascal's wager, just in case there is a god



I agree with you op. No objection at all to my kids being taught about different faiths. But I my opinion school should not involve worship.

We deliberately bought a house where the closest two schools were not faith schools. When we were shown round them the head was keen to stress that the school has close ties with the local church. If I wanted I bloody church school I would have jumped through the hoops and sent them there.

[Peregrina]

The rich man in his castle verse of All things bright and beautiful is not even included in modern versions of hymn books. The language has also been changed in many cases to make it more inclusive.

[BertrandRussell]

"Christianity informs a large amount of our history and culture. Being ignorant of it is just - ignorant. You don't have to believe but you sure as fuck should know and try to understand."

I absolutely agree.

What has this got to do with compulsory Christian worship in non faith state funded schools?

[niminypiminy]

Also most schools nowadays base their collective worship assemblies on values - my local community school has as its values such things as freedom, ambition, kindness, consideration , hard work and so on. All assemblies have to relate to that theme. As far as the school is concerned the religious message is secondary to promoting the value. In fact, you might say that the children are positively told by the school (and by clergy doing assemblies) that they must believe in the values but as far as I am aware children are never told by clergy that they must believe in Christianity or God.

[BertrandRussell]

The legislation says that it must be "broadly Christian in nature.

The point is that it is unacceptable that in order to take a full part in the life of a non faith state school your have to be at least a nominal Christian.

And no, I do not think my children will be brainwashed or converted. And yes I think RE is an extremely important subject and I am glad it 's on the curriculum. Just to forestall the next two posts! Learning about religion is fine. Learning to practise religion not fine.

[niminypiminy]

Oh, I don't know. I think there are some important life skills in learning to practice religion, viz.:

Sitting through boring stuff
Tolerating and perhaps even enjoying quietness
Thinking in an intentional way about others
Being thankful for the wonder of the world we have
Thinking seriously about the ways you have hurt others

Of course, you might get all of these in a secular setting. But even for the most determindly atheist child there might be some things of value in a collective worship assembly. You don't have to believe the get them.

[heateallthebuns]

I wouldn't mind it. Only the same as Christmas carols, Father Christmas and the tooth fairy.

[BertrandRussell]

The utter arrogance of Christians never ceases to amaze me............

[WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid]

But even for the most determindly atheist child there might be some things of value in a collective worship assembly

Determinedly atheist child?

Most young children will believe any old none sense you tell them unless it involves running out of ice cream then they check

I've had my five year old telling me about Christianity as though it's absolutely factually correct. I'm not comfortable with that.