People who are in favour of grammar schools....

[BertrandRussell]

....what is your proposal for the majority who are not selected?

TaIkinPeace

Why is paying to get to the grammar any more expensive than getting to the 'good' comp? Don't councils give bus passes to get to a faith school? Whats wrong with bicycles? Maybe the school will be required to provide means tested free transport? And as a last resort, if its that important the parents can pay for it themselves. Personally I would go without pretty much everything to give my DC an education appropriate to their abilities.

"Do you keep on asking the same question in the hope that one day someone will give you a satisfactory answer?"

Well, considering that I never have got a satisfactory answer, then yes, I probBly do.

Until such time as I do get a satisfactory answer, I can on,y assume that generally speaking, supporters of selective education don't actually care very much about the long tail that trails behind their own particular flaming comet........

DragonGirl, you know that the vast majority of comprehensives have different sets for each subject? They have a set for those on accelerated learning, or 'extension', they have sets for 'accelerating' or 'upper', or whatever they call them, they have average speed sets and sets for students who need a slower pace or more support.

And that teachers may teach differently depending on the class they are teaching? And that this occurs even if they teach two classes of the same set - one class might need more attention to behaviour management, the other may need more pupils being drawn out etc.

And in schools where they do mixed ability teaching, they have methodologies for that.

My point is, MumTryingHerBest, that comprehensives do not suit everyone, and they are not the holy grail of social equality churning out kids with qualifications that reflect the best of their abilities, who have had a positive experience while getting those qualifications. Lucky you having a great experience. The kids in my town who go to the catholic comprehensives also have that experience, generally speaking. A hell of a lot who go to the rest of the comprehensives don't (and that is kids of all abilities). Is that just tough shit, or would trying something else maybe be a positive move for everyone?

mathsmum
Why is paying to get to the grammar any more expensive than getting to the 'good' comp?
Because unless there are equal numbers of comps and grammars then the distances and costs will be higher - socially exclusive.
Don't councils give bus passes to get to a faith school?
No.
And many rural areas do not have faith schools.
Whats wrong with bicycles?
Would you want your child cycling 20 miles along a trunk road to school? Maybe the school will be required to provide means tested free transport?
With what money? THey have had their budgets slashed over the last 6 years
And as a last resort, if its that important the parents can pay for it themselves.
Out of benefits or zero hour NMW salaries ???
Personally I would go without pretty much everything to give my DC an education appropriate to their abilities.
That is because you have absolutely no concept of what its like to live on a household income of under £20k a year in a rural area without a car.

mathsmum314 Fri 09-Sep-16 18:39:05 Personally I would go without pretty much everything to give my DC an education appropriate to their abilities.

By all means feel free to do so, there are plenty of high performing privates around you don't need more Grammar schools to do this.

catholic comprehensives
oxymoron
if its Catholic its not a Comp.

Bertrand - thank you for answering my questions.

"my view is if the top 10% ( guessing here) of accademic kids are at grammar schools then the other 80% will get a better education as the teachers will not be teaching such a wide ability range"

Children learn through collaboration with each other as well as from their teachers.

My best learning experiences as an adult have been in groups where there are other students who know more than I do - people who can stretch me.

TheBogInn Fri 09-Sep-16 18:46:05 My point is, MumTryingHerBest, that comprehensives do not suit everyone, and they are not the holy grail of social equality churning out kids with qualifications that reflect the best of their abilities, who have had a positive experience while getting those qualifications.

The very same can be said about Grammar Schools.

TheBogInn Fri 09-Sep-16 18:46:05 Is that just tough shit, or would trying something else maybe be a positive move for everyone?

As I have previously pointed out, I live in an 11 plus area. Not a single problem you have highlighed in a comp. education system will be resolved through a Grammar system.

2StripedSocks Fri 09-Sep-16 18:51:08 Grammars are affordable to most.

Given that Grammars are not currently available for most I don't see how you can make this claim. There will be no difference in terms of affordability between getting into a Grammar and getting into an oversubscribed comp.

Apparently TM wants entry point to grammars at 11, 14 and 16. A move towards the right direction.

Dragon, my Dsis teaches at a High school and she agrees with you. She has said that she is glad that she gets to focus on the middle and low ability pupils.

Boffin, I find the view that DC who fail the 11+ are "condemned to failure" abhorrent. Fortunately I don't come across them in RL. Maybe that's because I keep better company than other MNetters. Or maybe it's because I and DS are the "oiks" who "contaminate" naice schools.

I agree TalkinPeace, but that's what they are called round here, and the parents sending their kids there are happy to go along with the line that they are sending their kids to a non selective comprehensive school. The fact that they are religiously selective seems neither here nor there, and no one ever points out that these children have an advantage that those of no faith will never get. It is as 'unfair' as selection by wealth or ability but it is entirely accepted that those children need to be educated in their faith (or that other people of faith need to send their children to a faith school as any faith school is preferable to a school which is, as much as is possible in this country, secular).

"You do have satisfactory answers,but unfortunately you don't like them."

Well, I don't think "They'll just stay where they are" is much of an answer. Or did I miss all the carefully though out plans?

OP, you sent one DC to grammar and unsuccessfully tried to get another into grammar. Did you "not care" about the children in your area who would be attending non grammar when you applied for grammar places for your own? Is that why you make such "assumptions" about other parents?

MumTryingHerBest - do you really not think that a child that would benefit from being able to work at a fast pace and learn above and beyond the curriculum required for GCSE, for example, would not benefit from being in a class with others of a similar ability? Equally, do you not think that the opportunity to shine and be top of the class would not benefit some children in a secondary modern environment?

2StripedSocks Fri 09-Sep-16 18:59:16 Of course there will, a bus ticket is hugely less expensive than a £300-£500k house.

Feel free to take a peek at the posts on the elevenplus forum where their DCs have failed to get a place on the school bus.

BertrandRussell

Well you have been given a few answers, maybe you just dont like them?

Those who want but dont get into a grammar school will go to one of the many other types of schools. e.g. Community schools, Foundation and trust schools, Voluntary Aided schools, Voluntary Controlled schools, Grammar schools, Independent schools, Free schools, Academies, University Technical Colleges, Special / SEN schools, Faith schools, Home schooling, etc etc And we then hold the government to account to ensure they are ALL GOOD options.

Personally I would expand selection to create more choice. So not just selection for 'academic' ability, but grammar schools for arts, literature, sports, computers, languages, etc etc and then allow more free movement between them for students who develop their talents at a later stage. Comprehensives can be for students who just want an all around education or haven't developed a strong interest in one area. And there will be no stigma for pupils who don't (or fail to) go to one specific type of grammar because everything becomes more fluid.

Grammars are affordable to most.
they are free!