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Education

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People who are in favour of grammar schools....

999 replies

BertrandRussell · 08/09/2016 17:28

....what is your proposal for the majority who are not selected?

OP posts:
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BoffinMum · 09/09/2016 18:06

Peregrina, she had to send one of her kids to a specialist school for dyslexia for a couple of years, and this was private, so she had to stand down on grounds of looking hypocritical otherwise.

2StripedSocks · 09/09/2016 18:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

alwayssurprised · 09/09/2016 18:10

I have given up thinking that we will ever find enough resources for all comps to cater for everyone of all abilities.

By this point of the discussion I am also, to be honest, also a bit sick of posters who keep saying comp works because they have DC in a nice one near them, or even more ridiculously opposing grammars while their DC are in there because that is what they need. What we need is a new way forward. It may well be a modernised Grammar system.

I have young talented children not in the secondary system yet I don't think they should stay in this grand social mobility experiment that is Comprehensive education and accept their so so local comp and hope for the best.

mathsmum314 · 09/09/2016 18:10

TaIkinPeace
the more Grammars there are, the more like comps they will become

I agree and that is why I would hope there is only a small number of them, maybe 1 per medium sized area. Perhaps even just partially selective. Enough just to get a concentration of those that actually need it. Also if it was only a small number, it would probably preserve comprehensives as they are.

alwayssurprised · 09/09/2016 18:15

Talkin my problem is the percentage of Oxbridge data comes from the Sutton report whereas the extrapolation of it to year 11 numbers appears to come from LSN.

If the whole analysis comes from Sutton I will accept its reliability. At the moment I not sure if the numbers are valid.

TaIkinPeace · 09/09/2016 18:16

mathsmum
I agree and that is why I would hope there is only a small number of them, maybe 1 per medium sized area.
WHO WILL PAY THE BUS FARE THEN ?

Councils only pay to the nearest school.
So the Grammar will be the preserve of those who can afford the bus fare
and the fuel money and time to do the non bus pickups
so the Grammar will be a socially exclusive enclave

oh silly me, that is what the Grammar supporters secretly want

BoffinMum · 09/09/2016 18:17

Well, you would be amazed, there was a much, much broader mix of people at the independent school than I ever would have encountered in a little grammar school in North Lincolnshire, one of the most hideously white and introspective counties I know.

Prior to that I was pretty much related to half the people in my primary classroom and if we got a Catholic pupil in there it was a major event and people spoke about it in hushed tones. I only ever saw black people on TV. Poverty meant living in a four-bedroomed council house with a garden or a perfectly serviceable rented bungalow near a chicken farm.

The only diversity I ever saw was that one family didn't use contraception and they had crammed lots of children (10+?) in their little estate house like the Duggars, and apparently lived on white bread and margarine. The kids were peaky looking and a bit thin, if perfectly friendly when out playing with the rest of us. That was about as exciting as it got.

Don't knock every aspect of the independent sector on class grounds. The history and reality of the independent sector in this country is so much more complex and interesting than that, really.

sandyholme · 09/09/2016 18:20

Ruth Kelly 'OPUS DEI'

Do i need to say anymore ....

Anyway Boffin Newsom Report of 1963 is my Copyright !.......

I posted it first HA HA

2StripedSocks · 09/09/2016 18:21

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TheBogInn · 09/09/2016 18:22

But even if they do become more like comps, they might, in some areas of very low attainment, become more like those comps where being more academically inclined is ok, and wanting to push on at a faster rate is not a reason to be picked on, which would be a step in the right direction. Then, those not at the grammar might be able to access a way of learning more appropriate to their strengths and ways of learning, without always being second best and losing interest.

I was educated at a comprehensive which was, for me, just awful. My parents both went to a secondary modern, one through their choice (shock horror), and one because they had missed a lot of primary school due to ill health and did not pass the 11 plus. Both had siblings who went to grammar schools and one sibling went to a very good independent on a full scholarship. Neither felt cheated or second rate. Both classes produced people who went on to become doctors, lawyers, pilots, successful business people etc, as was I, however they have nothing but praise for, and happy memories of their schools. My experience in a comprehensive was far worse, and I have virtually no good memories of secondary school, even though there were some good teachers who were working very hard, and doing a great job, in trying circumstances.

2StripedSocks · 09/09/2016 18:24

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TaIkinPeace · 09/09/2016 18:24

Boffin
I've just spent a couple of days in Louth
the naice London civil servants really have absolutely no effing idea about "aspirations" and "career opportunities" and "raising achievement"
until they have driven the road from Louth to Grimsby, preferably via Summercotes Grin

MumTryingHerBest · 09/09/2016 18:26

a7mints Fri 09-Sep-16 15:26:59 mumtryingherbest I am not sure which side you are on? On some posts you seem to be against GSs but on others, extolling secondary moderns

Care to highlight which one of my posts has led you to this conclusion?

BertrandRussell · 09/09/2016 18:26

I find it fascinating that even on a thread that specifically asks about that requirements of middle and low ability children we are prioritizing the needs of the high ability.

OP posts:
TaIkinPeace · 09/09/2016 18:28

Talkin our grammar bus is exactly the same cost as the preferred comp more parents bus out to
But how many parents cannot afford to go to the preferred comp either
thus no matter how bright their kids, they will not have a choice of school

so the selection tests is on economics, not ability - yet again Sad

sandyholme · 09/09/2016 18:28

Oldham/Ashton are worse Talkin....

BoffinMum · 09/09/2016 18:28

Talkinpeace, I feel heard. I feel understood. Grin

My grandfather was born in Louth. Nuff said.

Dragongirl10 · 09/09/2016 18:29

my view is if the top 10% ( guessing here) of accademic kids are at grammar schools then the other 80% will get a better education as the teachers will not be teaching such a wide ability range.

I am not a teacher but cannot imagine how difficult it must be to teach effectively a class of 30 kids with abilities from the brightest and fastest to the slowest and support them all simultaneously.

I would be equally happy if my kids did or didn't get into a grammar for that reason.Either way l feel they are more likely to get a good education
with more grammars in the mix.

TBH l cannot see peoples objections.

TaIkinPeace · 09/09/2016 18:30

Bertrand
I've always asked people to define high ability
as I've wondered why the test modules of the 11+ were chosen over say
dancing or art or music or languages or stilt walking

BoffinMum · 09/09/2016 18:30

I know, I had forgotten the Opus Dei thing. Do you think she wears a celice? Wink

BoffinMum · 09/09/2016 18:33

Dragongirl, you would think so but in practice it is very complex and lots of children end up having assumptions made about them that are wrong, or giving up because they feel worthless. So overall it has a detrimental effect. The grammar schools don't necessarily add value either as they manage to get good results relatively easily due to affluent parents and prior selection, so their teaching can be complacent. Which is why people gave up on it as a system.

DioneTheDiabolist · 09/09/2016 18:34

Mathsmum, I said that I didn't know what was happening. As yet I have no DC in secondary school. I have no doubt that the HTs of secondary schools do know what is happening.

MumTryingHerBest · 09/09/2016 18:36

TheBogInn Fri 09-Sep-16 18:22:12 I was educated at a comprehensive which was, for me, just awful.

I had a very positive experience at my comp. What's your point exactly.

Dapplegrey1 · 09/09/2016 18:36

Bertrand you must have started, or contributed to, thousands of threads about the iniquity of grammar schools.
Your question - what happens to the children who fail 11 plus as the less academically able are the ones who need supporting - is always the same. Do you keep on asking the same question in the hope that one day someone will give you a satisfactory answer?
Or do you just want to explain to grammar school supporters that their views are unacceptable?

TheBogInn · 09/09/2016 18:37

Dragongirl, I agree. I think it is the fear of the schools full of 'undesirables' that makes a lot of people feel anti-grammar, when the reality would be more people getting an appropriate education.