People who are in favour of grammar schools....

[BertrandRussell]

....what is your proposal for the majority who are not selected?

Our local authority pays for bus passes for those children who live more that three miles from the catholic schools, so I would imagine they'd have to do the same for the hypothetical grammar.

Personally I would expand selection to create more choice. So not just selection for 'academic' ability, but grammar schools for arts, literature, sports, computers, languages, etc etc and then allow more free movement between them for students who develop their talents at a later stage.

But that is London La La land bilge
Look at this Catchment map
www3.hants.gov.uk/schooldetails?dfes=4129#catchment
ONE
just
ONE
school covers that huge area of the New Forest
how on earth do you have multiple selective schools and choice
when there is ONLY ONE SCHOOL

TheBogInn Fri 09-Sep-16 19:02:38 - MumTryingHerBest - do you really not think that a child that would benefit from being able to work at a fast pace

Of course I do. What has this got to do with the need for Grammar schools?

TheBogInn Fri 09-Sep-16 19:02:38 and learn above and beyond the curriculum required for GCSE

I'm going to bet that any school that has a 6th form can help with that one.

TheBogInn Fri 09-Sep-16 19:02:38 benefit from being in a class with others of a similar ability?

You do realise that comps tend to have more than one high ability DC in attendance.

TheBogInn Fri 09-Sep-16 19:02:38 Equally, do you not think that the opportunity to shine and be top of the class would not benefit some children in a secondary modern environment?

I think it would benefit any child irrespective of the type of school they attend. What exactly is your point?

Totally in favour. A far better option than the current system, where those without the cash, cannot afford the catchment area for better schools. Ability over the pockets of the richest for me everytime

Imagine you have 3 kids at the grammar... So £1500 a year on buses alone. It adds up.

If this whole crazy malarky goes ahead, how soon do we think it might come in? DS got all 3s in KS1 SATs 16 months ago so probably would pass 11+. But I hate the grammar system. I don't want to feel obliged to collude with elitist nonsense or else risk a 2nd tier education for DS. Nightmare.

2StripedSocks Fri 09-Sep-16 19:07:55 And..... Mum

The parents who are paying for a taxis to and from school are not finding travelling to the grammar school particularly cheap.

The Sutton Trust estimates that 15% of state school entrants are from grammars and as they educate about 15 5 of HIGH ACHIEVING children that's about what you'd expect. They have some very complicated way of working that out.

then again HPFA you could just use the data straight from the horse's mouth. Table 1 on page 4 gives the Cambridge figures, and I'd imagine Oxford publish something in a similar format.

www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/sites/www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/undergrad_admissions_statistics_2015_cyle.pdf

The Cambridge stats site www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/apply/statistics
has pdfs for each of the past five years, and for those really keen tables that provide information by individual school - and not surprisingly a good number of comps - gasp, shock, horror - do very well.

TheNaze73 Fri 09-Sep-16 19:10:14 Totally in favour. A far better option than the current system, where those without the cash, cannot afford the catchment area for better schools. Ability over the pockets of the richest for me everytime

A Grammar system will not change this. Cost of tution & cost of buying in catchment (which will naturally form if the school is oversubscribed).

This page
documents.hants.gov.uk/education/Sept2016Y7admissionsdata.pdf
Shows the admission data for all of the Hampshire Comps that are still under LEA control

the right hand column shows the maximum admission distance outside the catchment .... over ten miles in one case

interesting that Thornden - which is effectively a grammar had less than two applicants per place

Why, why, why, why will people keep saying that the only good comps are in wealthy areas? No, no,no,no.....

DoE also publishes (well certainly used to) cohort size by individual school, so number at Grammar school Y13 for a given entry cycle could be aggregated up.

I believe every parent should have a good conversation with their child BEFORE preparing for Grammar School exams and should discuss other options too. There is a back-up list they must have on the CAF form anyway; therefore, if not selected accept or decline the offer from the LA.
I would like more Grammar Schools and I'm sure that the children not passing will do just fine.

MumTryingHerBest - obviously we have had very different experiences at comprehensive schools. At mine, we were taught the curriculum minus a couple of points, in a couple of subjects, because the teachers were overwhelmed with work. There were some of us who could have flown through the work but we didn't even realise that we could be taught more than we needed to know. When I met people at university who had gone to selective schools who had GCSE knowledge of subjects not far off my A level knowledge I was pretty surprised. At my school we just managed to cover the syllabus more or less, despite some very academically inclined pupils. Yes, pupils. More than one, but the vast majority in the year were not. Setting is not carried out in all comprehensives so not all children do have the opportunity to be top as they are always beaten in tests by the same, more academically inclined, pupils.
The local authority removed sixth forms from all but the Catholic schools, and I absolutely agree that schools with sixth forms can address that problem in a way that those without can't.

MumTryingHerBest, No matter how much I give up I wont be able to afford private schools.

TaIkinPeace, You have no idea what my personal finances are, so your scrapping the barrel to suggest, *I don't know what it like to be poor".

I am not suggesting every child within a 20 mile radius should have access to a grammar school. But I am suggesting MORE children should have access than is currently the situation. Where I now live the cost of a daily student bus ticket is the same no matter how far you travel in the city.

boys3 from your table the number of applicants from Comprehensives are quite disappointingly few at 3065 with Grammar school applicants at 1805.

Success rate 22.3% from Comprehensives and 32.6% at Grammar.

Surely there are a few top comps but it seems grammar is a better bet for those with Oxbridge ambitions still.?

In answer to the op's question, I kind of assumed the 75/80% not going to grammar schools (or fee paying) to have pretty much the same experience as now, just in smaller schools. Perhaps the non- grammar secondary schools will be more likely to run vocational courses. I don't actually see that as a bad thing if non-academic children are being catered for.

When everyone talks in horror about secondary moderns, they are talking about a system where grammars got more money per child than secondary moderns, they were underfunded and didn't expect children to pass academic qualifications, and weren't criticised for not expecting that - in areas of the country that still have the 11+, the non-grammars no longer get lower funding levels, nor do they assume children won't do standard qualifications - most expect to send their top sets (which would be the sets 2/3 in a comp system) to uni.

With an increase of grammars, I don't see how the standards in the other schools will fall, unless you assume teachers will stop trying once the brightest ones aren't there...

"Yes the anti grammar brigade's way of portraying grammar school supporters as rich snobs who don't want their kids mixing with poorer children is insulting,deliberately inflammatory, incorrect and verging on bullying"

Really? Which bit do you object to in particular?

I would certainly remove "rich"- although many are, and replace with "comfortably off" "Snob" is not a word I care for or ever use - but hey ho. If the cap fits........

"Success rate 22.3% from Comprehensives and 32.6% at Grammar."

Because both schools have identical intakes, and all the children have similar levels of support at home so it's easy to make comparisons.

"Success rate 22.3% from Comprehensives and 32.6% at Grammar"

Important to remember that a lot of children would go private if there were no grammars. So thay's not really a comparison that works.

Mini the success rate is calculated from number of applicants, i.e. the top students from the comps who have a hope to get in, not everyone. The number of Grammar schools is still small at the moment so presumably a lot of top sets from most Comprehensive schools are true top set, containing a lot of high ability kids with supporting family too.

Don't you think 3000 odd applications from all Comprehensives in the country is not good enough?