Private schools (!!!)

[Anthony71]

First-off, I'm a dad not a mum. I hope that's allowed.

I have become something of an expert at private schooling in the last 12 months having come to know four local private schools intimately. My kids all attended an excellent school that closed due to financial trouble last year. So many people have said to me "it can't have been that good if it had to close" but trust me it was an outstanding school. In fact its closure was really down to the fact that the school could not find a buyer because it was too expensive to buy as it owned all it's own property without mortgage/lease etc. So it was rather a victim of it's own value. (The prospective buyers instead purchased a hugely indebted school just down the road with a low-cost leasehold at a bargain price - I mean it was cheaper to buy that school than it was to buy my house...)

Anyhows, our school closed and my three kids were all effectively "dumped on the street" looking for new schools. My eldest child (DC1) is year 10 so was a GCSE priority - we immediately put DC1 into a supposedly "outstanding" school. My middle child DC2 in year 8 is dyslexic and my youngest DC3 is a bright year 6.

For DC2 we looked at all options - state and private. DC2 was offered bottom-set classes in a number of state schools though each of those schools warned us that the experience would be far removed from what they were used to. We were permitted to covertly observe the relevant classes in those state schools and identified disruptive, aggressive and disinterested children. So these schools were our last resort "back-up-plan".

We took DC2 to three (purportedly non-selective) independent schools for 'taster days'. The feedback from two of these schools was that DC2 was simply "too weak" (exact words) and, in one case, "simply the most academically challenging child we have ever encountered". Trust me, DC2 isn't that bad!

One independent school offered DC2 a place mainly because they need the numbers. Never a good reason to go to a school but families can take advantage of these schools in the circumstances if they are happy to take the risk of the school going-under.

My youngest DC3 went to a supposedly outstanding independent junior school.

The reason for my post? Frankly it boils down to the cynical and farcical way these independent schools are run. My year 10 DC1 has studied triple science quite satisfactorily for months only to be told they was no longer good enough for that in the new school. I objected and have struck a deal where DC1 might possibly study triple science if they can prove themselves in the year 10 exams and that will require me (dad) teaching and supporting her to coach her through those exams (the school will not do any more than they are doing). DC2 has been told they might not be able to do GCSE maths unless they get extra help from home (me again, dad) to get them up-to-speed. Notably, neither of these schools believe that the children are incapable of these exams, more that they won't support them taking the exams unless their results improve markedly.

Anyhow, my observation is that I pay handsomely for these kids to attend these schools, I hold down a full-time job and I now find myself having to teach them myself! I mean there are teachers whose actual job is to teach these kids to get them up-to-speed - they have the time and training to do it (especially in independent schools) yet it falls to me to do it without teacher training and with much less time.

My point is: I have got to know a lot of independent schools through this process - I mean really got to know them. I know how they think, I know how they work and I know what drives them. If we had our time again I would not use independent schools full stop. This is not an extreme reaction to a school closure, and it is not limited to any particular type of school. We are talking about small intimate schools, a huge independent grammar school, a GDST school and a Cognita school. They are all the same. I am a product of state schooling and I would definitely work hard with even the most speculative of state schools before going through this crock of crap again.

Any additional qualifications, academic or vocational , will request gcse in Maths and English, so it is worth taking them, but if your dc doesn't get c or above in y11 they can either retake or do a level 1 or 2 course alongside another qualification or even as an adult. Bear in mind they are expected to be in education or training until 18 now.

"An interesting thing about dyslexia that I learned is that it is covered by the Disability Discrimination Act 2010. Under the provisions of that act, no educational institution (whether state or private) can discriminate. That is not to say that a dyslexic child cannot be asked to leave a school if their needs are too great - rather it means that reasonable adjustments should be made to seek to avail the child of the same learning opportunities and experiences as others."
As a mother of two dyslexic children so am talking from some experience the problem is that although the school has to make some reasonable adjustment the child themselves has to be able to keep up. Secondly if the school is not experienced in managing your DC's learning difficulties the calibre of the staff and their understanding of your DC's problems might not be up too much. Thirdly most schools will charge you for any significant input and if they have to make a huge adjustment I suspect could simply price you out of the school. IME anything but milf dyslexia/dyscalculia etc is very poorly managed in both sectors unless they have specialised units.
Again IME and IMO there are some excellent independent schools out there and some crap ones paying doesn't mean its always going to better in general or better for your DC.
OP you have been flamed rather badly although the initial wording of your post may be a little patronising I find it rather sad that so many people have attacked you. As a regular poster on the education sections I would like to think that most of the time we are civilised and that we don't resemble the hideous AIBU section.

Of course your DC2 should do math GCSE as said above I thought it was essential to have it. My DS1 (whose actually very bright but has a very significant processing problem) has what I suspect to be undiagnosed dysclaculia, he is pretty is terrible at math but by nothing short of a minor miracle he managed to pass math GCSE with private tutoring and an excellent teacher in the last two terms before he sat it. His so called "outstanding high achieving state school" was happy for him to fail it but my DH made such a fuss (understatement) he was moved into a class for children expected to pass it and lo and behold four months later he passed it.

Thanks Lizs and happygardening for your useful comments.

Iizs - no I don't think I had considered that there is an expectation to be in education/training to 18... it is an ambition of course for my dyslexic child and rather emphasises the desire/need to at least try to get GCSE maths under the belt.

Happygardening - it's helpful to hear of your dyslexia experience and insights. My child's dyslexia was identified early while in state primary year 2, then confirmed in yr 4, again year 6 and year 8 (each of these being EdPsych assessments that we paid for ourselves - the primary school/LEA commissioned a report from an "education specialist" but she was not a qualified EdPsych and her report reflected as much. The LEA EdPsych team never produced a report longer than a single sentence saying something like "...is on School Action Plus and the school will review every six months"... so we went direct to an EdPsych and got full reports for ourselves).

We have been through the mill a bit finding an appropriate setting for DC2. Primary school was a bit of a write-off frankly - we remember Year 6 in particular where the whole year was focussed on SATs and DC2 learned very little (having been identified as not needing to sit the tests). That said, primary school at year 6 were at pains to tell us how much further DC2 had progressed so that he didn't warrant the level of support he was receiving. We never really understood this. He was offered a secondary school place at a school that had been ranked "inadequate", underwent a huge investment, and following that was ranked "requires improvement". It was in this context that we looked to the independent sector as the only realistic alternative choice.

The interesting thing about the independent school we selected for DC2 is that it did may not have seemed amazing to most parents - results were OK (55% A*/A if that is a worthwhile measure) but for a dyslexic child it offered small classes, seemingly good teachers and good literacy progress in the first year. The school then closed and the rest is history.

I agree with you: dyslexia provision for all but mild/moderate cases is seriously deficient in our area too. These are clever, capable kids who have specific learning difficulties. So I find myself home-schooling on top of conventional-schooling and actually it seems to work.

"My child's dyslexia was identified early while in state primary year 2, then confirmed in yr 4, again year 6 and year 8"
I'm not sure you need to endlessly confirm the diagnosis it wont go away I'm afraid over the years we've paid for 2 assessments (1 prior to starting uni) and the LEA ed psych did one.
My DS1 has been in both independent schools and state my head aches from banging it against a wall stuffed with couldn't care less teachers in both sectors. The independent sector made promises it had no intention of keeping and the state sector didn't even bother to make any promises both wrote my very bright DS off (according to his last ed. pysch report IQ 140+ Im the first to admit to being shocked).
"it is an ambition of course for my dyslexic child and rather emphasises the desire/need to at least try to get GCSE maths under the belt."
Dont write your DC off my DS1 is now at uni and appears to be doing very well his last ed psych report stated that he was an interesting and very unusual individual outstanding candidate for higher education now not struggling with the things that he found impossible like math and only doing the subject he'd passionate about he's thriving and highly motivated to do well..

Thank you for your interesting post Anthony.

The first reply you received, wow. What a biatch

If you bothered your arse to read the thread you would see I apologised.

Twice actually.

Sorry - three times.

But hey..

How polite you are, thank you.

I read the thread but skipped all of your posts on account of your first post of diatribe. I won't be going back to read your three grovelling apologies. How about just not being a biatch in the first place next time.

Another example of why it's always better to RTFT

Good question.

This is futile.

Your response is less than polite considering the gentleman is merely expressing his views to inform others as to what to expect of educational institutions.
There is a huge difference between that which parents understand about education and that which is actually applied. After working on space projects for NASA, I entered into teaching and I have been a tutor in many establishments - primary schools, secondary schools, Colleges and Universities for more than forty years. I have worked voluntarily for the local Education Board over a lengthy period of almost thirty years and I have been a voluntary member of the Youth Offending team for five years. I have now retired and teach on a private basis. I consider that I have a little knowledge about education and students of all ages and capabilities.
First of all, there is a myth that Private School education is superior to that of State Schools. The education is the same - it is how it is applied that is different! The huge cost of Private Education provides peer connections for later careers. There is no amount of wealth that can make a less academic student into a genius! A bright student will achieve high standards of education in whichever institution that they are placed into.
Private tutors to aid your child can be either highly beneficial or a supreme disaster. A huge number of these are not educators, and have no idea how to adapt lessons to suit a students needs. A good tutor does not need to advertise how wonderful they may be.

DC2 was offered bottom-set classes in a number of state schools though each of those schools warned us that the experience would be far removed from what they were used to.

Do they have streamed/banded/ability classes in state primary schools in some parts of the uk!?

A head actually told you ther school would be shit compared to what your used to? Another

Oh sorry Year 8 not 8. You had me there for a minute. It's late and I'm tired.

"The education is the same"
This is not my experience I've had DCs simultaneously in both and only an academic year apart they definitely did not receive he "same" education. They dot even sit the same exams for a start.
" The huge cost of Private Education provides peer connections for later careers."
This is a myth frequently peddled on MN my DH went to a school that most would associate with "prestigious connections for later careers" he has never benefited from or used these connections. These connections for a later career are made by parents within their circle of friends, its inevitable if youre a top corporate lawyer you're unlikely to dinning with a dustman in your spare time, your dinning with a investment bankers etc so when you DS says he want work experience with a large bank you ring your investment banker friend, he does the same when his DD says she want to become a lawyer. Its got very little to do with who you are at school with.

'First of all, there is a myth that Private School education is superior to that of State Schools'

If you read many, many threads on MN about choosing state or private, you'll know that myth has no traction here.

I want to thank those of you who took the time to read my emotional and ill-considered diatribe against independent schooling. I did request that MN tone down the exclamation marks from the title but my request was declined. It has been an interesting experience posting in this particular forum - despite having read MN quite a few times in the past (on quite specific topics that affect us) I had not really appreciated how different MN is compared to many other internet forums.

If I were to write my post again I would avoid/clarify the following:

We know we are not really experts. We do not have intimate knowledge. We have had an experience that is not all too common and wished to share it.

The previous school was not perfect and clearly closed for a reason. We feel we have learned a bit about private school financing, ownership models, rescue options and politics etc. and are happy to chat to anyone who may be interested in that.

We have struggled to know what is best for DC2 in particular in view of dyslexia (which is characterised as 'severe' by the EdPsychs). We have some experience of this and are still learning to choose and balance between state school provision, independent school provision, tutoring and other resources. Happy to chat about that if anyone is interested.

On reflection there is likely nothing in my original post that is of interest to anyone other than us and MN is not be a place to air experiences in the way that I did. Accordingly, I Don't believe there is any further benefit in continuing this discussion. If you are interested in chatting with us on the topics above feel free to PM me.

All this aside, I have learned so much about MN and spoke with my wife about it last night. She is a psychologist and much more familiar with MN than I. She recommended that I read the fascinating article by Professor Sarah Pedersen at Aberdeen "Mothers with attitude — How the Mumsnet parenting forum offers space for new forms of femininity to emerge online". It is freely available via researchgate and supports the view that MN is primarily perceived by its participants as an entertainment medium. It is well worth a read.

Farewell MN.

'Mothers with Attitude'

Basically you can get good, independent schools and bad one, nd good state schools and bad ones. Unfortunately op,,you have discovered that paying money doesn't't always bring success.

Although your dcs were happy and fulfilled at the school that closed down, I do think it probably wasn't as good as it was cracked up,to be and your children weren't taught as well as you thought, for whatever reason, you were being deluded there.

I hope that you find schools that suit your children, in what ever sector, and that they soon settle down and prosper there.

"Multiple exclamation marks,' he went on, shaking his head, 'are a sure sign of a diseased mind."
(Eric, Terry Pratchett)

WTF?

Who the hell needs some random article to tell them how they are experiencing MN?

While he was arrogant and OTT I didn't find his remarks particularly troubling and he seemed to respond quite positively to the bitching. It's this place that is diseased.

The "mothers with attitude" paper is a good read and it's not as if OP chose the title himself.