Private schools (!!!)

[Anthony71]

First-off, I'm a dad not a mum. I hope that's allowed.

I have become something of an expert at private schooling in the last 12 months having come to know four local private schools intimately. My kids all attended an excellent school that closed due to financial trouble last year. So many people have said to me "it can't have been that good if it had to close" but trust me it was an outstanding school. In fact its closure was really down to the fact that the school could not find a buyer because it was too expensive to buy as it owned all it's own property without mortgage/lease etc. So it was rather a victim of it's own value. (The prospective buyers instead purchased a hugely indebted school just down the road with a low-cost leasehold at a bargain price - I mean it was cheaper to buy that school than it was to buy my house...)

Anyhows, our school closed and my three kids were all effectively "dumped on the street" looking for new schools. My eldest child (DC1) is year 10 so was a GCSE priority - we immediately put DC1 into a supposedly "outstanding" school. My middle child DC2 in year 8 is dyslexic and my youngest DC3 is a bright year 6.

For DC2 we looked at all options - state and private. DC2 was offered bottom-set classes in a number of state schools though each of those schools warned us that the experience would be far removed from what they were used to. We were permitted to covertly observe the relevant classes in those state schools and identified disruptive, aggressive and disinterested children. So these schools were our last resort "back-up-plan".

We took DC2 to three (purportedly non-selective) independent schools for 'taster days'. The feedback from two of these schools was that DC2 was simply "too weak" (exact words) and, in one case, "simply the most academically challenging child we have ever encountered". Trust me, DC2 isn't that bad!

One independent school offered DC2 a place mainly because they need the numbers. Never a good reason to go to a school but families can take advantage of these schools in the circumstances if they are happy to take the risk of the school going-under.

My youngest DC3 went to a supposedly outstanding independent junior school.

The reason for my post? Frankly it boils down to the cynical and farcical way these independent schools are run. My year 10 DC1 has studied triple science quite satisfactorily for months only to be told they was no longer good enough for that in the new school. I objected and have struck a deal where DC1 might possibly study triple science if they can prove themselves in the year 10 exams and that will require me (dad) teaching and supporting her to coach her through those exams (the school will not do any more than they are doing). DC2 has been told they might not be able to do GCSE maths unless they get extra help from home (me again, dad) to get them up-to-speed. Notably, neither of these schools believe that the children are incapable of these exams, more that they won't support them taking the exams unless their results improve markedly.

Anyhow, my observation is that I pay handsomely for these kids to attend these schools, I hold down a full-time job and I now find myself having to teach them myself! I mean there are teachers whose actual job is to teach these kids to get them up-to-speed - they have the time and training to do it (especially in independent schools) yet it falls to me to do it without teacher training and with much less time.

My point is: I have got to know a lot of independent schools through this process - I mean really got to know them. I know how they think, I know how they work and I know what drives them. If we had our time again I would not use independent schools full stop. This is not an extreme reaction to a school closure, and it is not limited to any particular type of school. We are talking about small intimate schools, a huge independent grammar school, a GDST school and a Cognita school. They are all the same. I am a product of state schooling and I would definitely work hard with even the most speculative of state schools before going through this crock of crap again.

"the results are relatively outstanding at the independent schools"

This is a pretty meaningless phrase, I'm afraid.

There must have been something badly wrong with the first school that it needed to sell up. That it could not be sold as a going concern isn't just a reflection of the expense of the real estate, but if the viability as a school.

It's horrid for your DC to discover that their teaching was inadequate. Now, some of that might be change of exam board and being too far adrift in the exam syllabus. But it could also be a reflection of the quality of teaching and learning at the first school.

When you have been on MN for longer, you will see that there are plenty of posts about checking the financial viability of independent schools, especially smaller ones. And also that when choosing a school it is more important to look at its standards and ethos irrespective of how it is funded.

Awww , I feel mean now.

Op, im sorry I was taking the piss but to be honest trying to present yourself as an expert when you know nothing that is relevant to my childrens education, or indeed the education of most children outside your immediate area, was really arrogant.
We all fret about choosing schools and the posters on MN are generally intelligent , sensible and well informed.
Don't assume your audience.

"I am just a bit disappointed at their selectiveness when it comes to putting kids in for public exams the results of which find their way onto the school website."

This happens in both sectors. It is very common in state schools for pupils not to be able to opt for triple science unless they have reached the school's required standard.

re: jumping a couple of years: please don't assume I'm bullshitting. You don't know me, you don't know DC2. I'm happy for you to know me and DC2.

DC2 has dyslexia. At age 10 his EdPsych assessed reading ability at approximately year 8. At age 11, after 1 year in a particular school, his reading ability had progressed to age 10. That is all that I meant. Nothing more. Sorry I wasn't so explicit. This was achieved by a particular plan of action implemented at a particular school.

I meant age 8, not year 8.....

"When you have been on MN for longer, you will see that there are plenty of posts about checking the financial viability of independent schools, especially smaller ones. And also that when choosing a school it is more important to look at its standards and ethos irrespective of how it is funded."

LOL I didn't need MN to check the financials. I did my research and knew it would close. I even acknowledged in my very first post that parents can take advantage of schools in that situation (not necessarily recommended).

Caprinihahahaha - I can't tell when you are being sincere (and I don't mind at all) but I apologise for offending you.

" almost all of the Year 6 children were working 2 years ahead"

PiratePete, this is - to the word - a claim that almost all private primary schools make.

It isn't usually true - or rather, it is no more true of those schools than it is of state schools covering the same range of abilities.

I'll do this in 'old money' - national curriculum levels - because it makes the description easier. In state schools, at the end of Y6, the 'expected' level was a mid Level 4.

At a national level, 80% of children achieved at or above this level in all subjects last year. In a good primary, 90%+ of children achieve at or above this level.

'2 years ahead' of expected level would be a mid level 5 or so - and typically around a third of children from an average state primary will get this in all subjects,. In our local good primary, half to 3/4 of children got a Level 5 or above in one of the subjects, and about 5-10% scored Level 6 in maths, which is 3 years ahead.

Since even non-selective private schools select against significant SEN, all are socially selective because none admit more than a token number of very deprived children, and all will be able to 'remove' children whose behaviour, for example, is not what is expected, a rise from 'half to 3/4 working 2+ years ahead' in a good state primary with none of these advantages, to 'almost all' in a private school, is in fact only what might be expected. As the expectations in state prim,aries have just been significantly raised - and the private school will almost certainly not have raised their expectations even further to match - the '2 years ahead' cliche may become less and less true.

Anecdotally, I have taught quite a number of these 'working 2 years ahead' children transferring from private to state schools for a variety of reasons. At least one went straight onto our SEN list because they were 2+ years behind. (Their parents had totally bought the 'she'll be in the top group, she's been with us, we teach far ahead of the national curriculum' line. it was a hideously difficult conversation.) None have been ahead of middling high ability within the state school class.

I am sorry you found my post risible.

It wasn't clear to me that you had checked the financial situation of the first school. Nor that you were familiar with the extent and type of advice on schools on MN.

I'll be utterly sincere here.

I'm not offended in the slightest. I am guilty of, and apologise for, laughing at you.

You turned up on a board populated by people who care enormously about education, packed with teachers, parents, glive ore, educators, parents of children with SN and various educational needs etc etc and you posted something which was pretty uninformative and totally anecdotal.

If you had turned up talking about your experience without the 'gosh golly, let me tell you all stuff you don't know' you probably would have received totally different replies.
Certainly my response would have been further from the inclination to point and laugh that I experienced .

But I was certainly mean and for that I apologise.
If you could just try to recognise that you are an expert in nothing except your kids and their schools that might help going forward.

Glive ore is a particular type of educator and not at all a really shite auto correct. Oh no indeed.

I am also finding that I have to do supplementary teaching at home for my dd (Y9, dyslexic, at independent school) - but then I imagine I would have to do this if she was state educated too, and possibly more of it (class size of 30 rather than 12)

EverySecondCounts - I read the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines and sought to be consistent with the rules. I'm sorry if my post is not consistent with what you are used to - this is a social community. I may be a first-time poster but I have read Mumsnet for quite a while (and my wife for much longer than I).

To the extent that I may have been inflammatory (against the rules) or offensive (also against the rules) I believe the responses from more established contributors are equally guilty.

Who are the more established contributors?

Thanks Caprinihahahaha - taken on board.

I acknowledge my experience is only relevant to me, and perhaps therefore my post is ill-judged and of no use to others. I can be more specific if anyone would like to know the particular schools involved if that helps anyone in particular. The geographic area is the Midlands if that helps. I just didn't want to publicly denounce anyone - I figure that might be even worse than offending the MN community... I don't know though.

I really fail to see what was so inflammatory about your opening post [rolls eyes at other posters]

I don't know that it would be wise to post 'st cakes is shite' but again, you posted your thread as a general complaint about private schools but to extrapolate that all private schools conform to your experience is ridiculous.

Again, didn't find it inflammatory.
Found it funny and faintly ridiculous.

hmcAsWas - hmmm, you're right. I was talking to a teacher-friend last night and she agreed that there would need to be a lot of home support wherever DC2 is schooled. I could perhaps invest in tutoring in that context though, saving money on fees.

An interesting thing about dyslexia that I learned is that it is covered by the Disability Discrimination Act 2010. Under the provisions of that act, no educational institution (whether state or private) can discriminate. That is not to say that a dyslexic child cannot be asked to leave a school if their needs are too great - rather it means that reasonable adjustments should be made to seek to avail the child of the same learning opportunities and experiences as others. I wonder how it fits into the general freedom of selective schools to ask pupils to leave (i'm thinking more of the borderline kids rather than the extremes here).

I am just a bit disappointed at their selectiveness when it comes to putting kids in for public exams the results of which find their way onto the school website. - I think you have answered your own question there! They are independent schools, charging large amounts of money to parents who can afford to pay and who want bang for their buck. They expect As and A*s and they are not interested in the class being held back by those who need extra support because that is not what they expected to pay for.

They are depending on those results and their leavers' destinations to attract next year's applicants and they don't want those nice tables mucked up with too many grade Cs. I am bemused that with your great knowledge of private schools and their operation that this is not obvious to you.

SEN support and provision for SN is a complete lottery. That's across all schools - private and state.
It's a fucking disgrace.
But it's not a situation where state schools get it right and private schools don't. It's not nearly as simple as that.

Yes - tutoring. Sometimes they need 1:1 to reiterate and embed difficult concepts. Takes longer to build the neural pathways and more repetition especially if they have poor working memory.

I am not in paid employment, so I can bridge the gap to some extent - and I am only needed sometimes not for everything....(I have to help her with Newton's second law etc this weekend in preparation for a physics test because on re-reading the notes she made in class she doesn't have a Scooby about what it all means)