Private schools (!!!)

[Anthony71]

First-off, I'm a dad not a mum. I hope that's allowed.

I have become something of an expert at private schooling in the last 12 months having come to know four local private schools intimately. My kids all attended an excellent school that closed due to financial trouble last year. So many people have said to me "it can't have been that good if it had to close" but trust me it was an outstanding school. In fact its closure was really down to the fact that the school could not find a buyer because it was too expensive to buy as it owned all it's own property without mortgage/lease etc. So it was rather a victim of it's own value. (The prospective buyers instead purchased a hugely indebted school just down the road with a low-cost leasehold at a bargain price - I mean it was cheaper to buy that school than it was to buy my house...)

Anyhows, our school closed and my three kids were all effectively "dumped on the street" looking for new schools. My eldest child (DC1) is year 10 so was a GCSE priority - we immediately put DC1 into a supposedly "outstanding" school. My middle child DC2 in year 8 is dyslexic and my youngest DC3 is a bright year 6.

For DC2 we looked at all options - state and private. DC2 was offered bottom-set classes in a number of state schools though each of those schools warned us that the experience would be far removed from what they were used to. We were permitted to covertly observe the relevant classes in those state schools and identified disruptive, aggressive and disinterested children. So these schools were our last resort "back-up-plan".

We took DC2 to three (purportedly non-selective) independent schools for 'taster days'. The feedback from two of these schools was that DC2 was simply "too weak" (exact words) and, in one case, "simply the most academically challenging child we have ever encountered". Trust me, DC2 isn't that bad!

One independent school offered DC2 a place mainly because they need the numbers. Never a good reason to go to a school but families can take advantage of these schools in the circumstances if they are happy to take the risk of the school going-under.

My youngest DC3 went to a supposedly outstanding independent junior school.

The reason for my post? Frankly it boils down to the cynical and farcical way these independent schools are run. My year 10 DC1 has studied triple science quite satisfactorily for months only to be told they was no longer good enough for that in the new school. I objected and have struck a deal where DC1 might possibly study triple science if they can prove themselves in the year 10 exams and that will require me (dad) teaching and supporting her to coach her through those exams (the school will not do any more than they are doing). DC2 has been told they might not be able to do GCSE maths unless they get extra help from home (me again, dad) to get them up-to-speed. Notably, neither of these schools believe that the children are incapable of these exams, more that they won't support them taking the exams unless their results improve markedly.

Anyhow, my observation is that I pay handsomely for these kids to attend these schools, I hold down a full-time job and I now find myself having to teach them myself! I mean there are teachers whose actual job is to teach these kids to get them up-to-speed - they have the time and training to do it (especially in independent schools) yet it falls to me to do it without teacher training and with much less time.

My point is: I have got to know a lot of independent schools through this process - I mean really got to know them. I know how they think, I know how they work and I know what drives them. If we had our time again I would not use independent schools full stop. This is not an extreme reaction to a school closure, and it is not limited to any particular type of school. We are talking about small intimate schools, a huge independent grammar school, a GDST school and a Cognita school. They are all the same. I am a product of state schooling and I would definitely work hard with even the most speculative of state schools before going through this crock of crap again.

It reminded me of that Blacklight thread - 'Behold! Man here to educate you! No need to thank me'

OK - so to sum up my first experience posting on MN... yes I wrote an ill-judged subjective post of my experience. I actually regret that. I wouldn't do that again.

In response, I have been subject to sarcasm, mockery, mild sexism, bad language, accused of saying "meaningless things" and bullshitting, described as "weird", "hard to believe", "completely blind", "difficult", "troublemaker", "odd", "strange" (twice), "arrogant", "unusual" and "ridiculous".

I genuinely don't take these things to heart - and I don't even disagree that my opening post may show some of those traits - but I do wonder if this is really the best way to help a newbie poster to understand MN. Couldn't one of you have just taken me aside and discretely shown me the door?

I am taking this in good humour and I am interested to learn about the experience of others if anyone wants to continue the discussion on-topic.

hmcAsWas - we have a tutor for DC2 and she is great. More money spent on tutoring to support a state school place might be the way to go.

Grateful for you to explain exactly what is the meaning of "the results are relatively outstanding at private schools"

For example, what are the results you refer to? And what standard is being used for 'outstanding'?

It seems highly unlikely that the first school they were in was that marvellous of it shut due to financial issues I.e not enough kids on roll, and now the new schools tell you the kids are at a lower level than you thought and need you to teach them at home.

Anyhows is not a word by the way.

This is a very bizarre thread. Feel sorry for the poor kids though.

AnotherNewt - the coarsest measure I was referring to is the proportion of A/A* grades at GCSE (i.e. the best grades). DC1's school gets just short of 80%. Local schools range between 30% and 65%. I used that to mean "relatively outstanding" - but I'd be happy with any suitable descriptor. Perhaps "relatively greater proportion of the very highest grades".

Sorry EverySecondCounts - I didn't mean that you had said those things, more that I was trying to post in-line with the rules. I find the quality of some of the responses surprising from a forum "full of teachers and educationalists". It seems to be more full of parents but I may be wrong.

Bad language is allowed. Nothing wrong with swearing on an adults forum as long as it's not compulsory .

I called your posting arrogant and ridiculous - not you. I'm sure you are perfectly nice.

My experiences of schooling are specific to my kids but I strongly believe that assuming strengths and weaknesses on any individual school based upon private or state is nonsense. Schools vary enormously.

Having to change your children's education in an unplanned and unexpected way much have been extremely difficult. I hope the solutions all work out

Anthony, always worth asking '80% of what, and what is the ability range of the pupils'.

For example, a superselective may actually be failing at 80% A/ A* grades - because it takes children in the top couple of % of ability at 11+.

Whereas a school with 65% of its children coming in at below expected levels at 11 (so at level 3 or below in SATs) can be making the best progress in its county despite only getting, say, 20% A/ A* grades...

OP, many parents can also be teachers and educationalists though? In fact, aren't we all educationalists these days?!

Well of course it's mostly parents

But there are plenty of posters who know a great deal about education. My point was that your post addressed everyone as if they had never considered their child's education beyond the most superficial way.

Are you quite sure you took this all in good humour?

I've been here a good long while...

I've found it best not to engage when a thread goes tits up - by which I mean don't respond to the detractors (ignore, ignore), and either re-post or stick around to see if anyone else comes along who doesn't want to minutely dissect your op, but would rather have a productive discussion...

Up to you though - you might enjoy a bit of locking horns (I find it tedious and not worth my time)

You may be amazed to discover that a large percentage of educators are in fact also parents!!!

OP, you aren't by any means unique in assuming 'good raw results = good school'. The Government has its moments on this, and Ofsted only really woke up to it and started focusing on progress properly a couple of years ago.

But a little common sense is easy to apply:

Which is the 'better school':

• One which takes only highly able students, and gets them the results they expected OR
• One which takes less able students and gets them better results than their prior attainment predicts?

it seems to be more full of parents but I may be wrong

Why OP, do you think a forum called 'Mumsnet' wouldn't be full of parents? Not all posters have children, but the clue is in the name that most will.

Anyway, I still think it's a weird thread. Your tiny sample of one family, hasn't had the experience you would have hoped. And so you want to educate everyone else based on your very personal experience?

hmcAsWas thanks so much. I will take your advice. This whole experience over the last 6 months has taken its toll. It is quite a rare experience - an immediate school closure - and I had read about it in newspapers and even knew that our school was at considerable risk of it happening to us (because I had researched the financials) but when it actually happens it really is a wrench, especially when there are multiple kids involved. We have had a lot of empathy from staff and parents and also a lot of people who underestimate the significance of the experience. The kids have been hit hard by it. I know we probably should have proactively moved before the school actually closed but we held on in there in case it could be rescued and unfortunately missed the opportunity.

Fortunately, the resilience of all our children is often underestimated and I'm sure this too will pass for them. Thanks for your words of support.

Great schools don't close down,there are however some really dire independent ones which tell parents whatever they want to hear.My niece and nephew were at such a school,there is a thread on here about it.I would have thought it was harder to fool parents of secondary school age children though.They were both moved up a year at the school,they are doing OK now at their new school but not top of the class.The school displays false 11+ results on their website,has one teacher for two year groups,very few qualified staff.It 's so unbelievably bad and yet if it were to close some parents would be saying what a terrible shame it was.They have about 5O students,they have now reduced their fees,had a dire ISI and Ofsted report.Physical bullying ignored the list is endless,one mother has even posted on the good school guide that her children are receiving a education like no other,goodness she is right there.I think the OP must now realize how bad his school was,up until now I thought the one local to us was unique.

Anthony71

I'll reply properly to your conundrum later, but just need to point out that Mumsnet has a reputation for being 'a den of vipers', but please don't be put off! After you get used to the directness and totally lack of sugar coating it's genuinely a fun, witty, helpful, supportive and generally wonderful place to chat...... Do take a deep breath before posting in AIBU though!

Hi Anthony
You have been burnt. You say in your area there has been a 20% downturn in private education. This probably means schools are fighting for pupils. In your first lovely school they told you what you wanted to hear. Your kids were doing well, making fantastic progress and indeed it might have been a lovely place. However it would seem teaching was not all it was cracked up to be and it was failing its pupils. Word on the street was probily thus and numbers fell in a competative market.
The new schools are also fighting for pupils and are doing this but producing excellent results. They are achieving this by only allowing sure fire winners to sit exams. They are not the only schools to do this. Maybe your oldest can scrape through triple science. Do they really want to do triple. Do they want to science A levels.
Lots of schools have results that don't really reflect their teaching. Tutoring is endemic in many schools.
Try and work with the new schools.

I would be very annoyed if, having spent many thousands of pounds sending my DC to private school, she wasn't allowed to take the GCSEs she was interested in, because the school felt that she would not get an A grade, or that it would be too much hard work to get her to that level. It shouldn't all be about the school's place in the league tables, or even getting the best possible grades for my DC. She is very keen on some subjects, and less so on others. She should be able to take the former subjects, even if she is better at the latter. And it is surely unforgivable not to allow a child to take GCSE maths if they have any chance of passing it (C grade), as you can do nothing without maths GCSE.

Thanks EmbroideryQueen, mary21 and Quillered for your comments.

mary21 hits the nail on the head - competition between the schools for a reducing number of pupils.

Yes Quillered - that's exactly how we feel: my kids don't want to enter for GCSEs just because they might achieve A/A* grades - a B or C in many subjects is very valuable to them. There does seem to be pressure to avoid getting C grades in the schools I have experience of. We also feel that my DC2 - who will struggle with GCSE maths - should at least try. I have spoken to a local state secondary school this afternoon and the headmistress pointed out that they would have to think very very carefully indeed about not entering a child for GCSE maths and English and any such child would likely experience very considerable learning disadvantage such that achieving those GCSEs would be, to all intents, impossible. She said she had never done it and could barely conceive of a situation where she would do it in mainstream education. I found that interesting and will refer to it in my discussions with DC2's current school.