Can we have a not-too polarised discussion about Eton, Harrow and Winchester?

[needtothinkaboutseniorschools]

I need to choose a senior school by the end of this year. We're looking at these three after discussion with school. Ds is only 9 so it's difficult to know what he'll be like in 4 years but right now he likes quantum physics, Lego and Dr Who and is very musical. He would be aiming for a music scholarship or exhibition and I trust the advice from the school as they clearly have a lot of experience in recommending senior schools.

I'm amazed we're even thinking about these schools and think all of them look amazing, but I've trawled through other mn threads and seen that some posters have extreme opinions about some of these schools. I'm thinking surely they can't be so different, as they all look great and they take boys from similar prep schools.

So please could I have some informed views on what the schools are like, without it getting too polarised? We will look at all three, but I know that the view you get on an open morning or tour isn't the same as the day-to-day experience.

We are also considering some state schools near to us, as those are good too, but clearly offer a very different experience.

I have to laugh at the poster suggesting Eton is clearly the fit for the OP's description. My son's 10 and sounds very similar to the OP's son; we've registered for Winchester as well as a local option and I do think Winchester sounds a promising fit.

Agree with whoever said you can meet the music staff - we had a very useful "pre-"pre-audition meeting a few weeks ago at Winchester. It was suggested to us to do it when we weren't sure after our initial visit - I'd thought from the website that you had to wait till they were older but actually that's not necessarily the case. I think when they go for a pre-audition in year 7 it is done more formally though (and we've been asked to plan to do that too).

I think that the assessments / interviews in year 6 have to be viewed as part of the process of choosing a school rather than just the school choosing the boys. Do you know any families in his current school who have sent older boys to your choices? Or maybe your school can put you in touch with former parents? I get the impression registering with at least 2 senior schools is useful / normal, by the way. So you have to decide that it is worth paying a registration fee, but not feel that you have committed to a final choice.

I absolutely agree that it is NOT about exam results, it is about the whole education of your child. My daughter is probably going to go to a school that gets poorer overall results because it has a broad entry; but we hope that they are correct about their aspirations and achievements with the top end of their cohort. She has an alternative of a selective day school that does get top results but we are not certain that for her personality they will be the best "fit". Need to finalise that decision very soon actually ...

Finally, anyone whose children might be suitable for and benefit from these schools is free to apply to go to them; the oldest schools tend to have the deepest pockets and the most flexible bursary funds I suspect. I know families for whom boarding will probably be the CHEAPER option for senior school.

So pleased this isn't my thread. I would be weeping with frustration right now.
Fair enough
I just did n't want these schools (or any) to be regarded as wasting money from (heavens forbid) their record of sending some of their students off for those 'lightweight' subjects that BoboChic disparages.

I don't disparage those subjects per se one little bit, nor do I ever claim they are lightweight. Your reading comprehension skills are weak, disinclined11

”I have to laugh at the poster suggesting Eton is clearly the fit for the OP's description. My son's 10 and sounds very similar to the OP's son; we've registered for Winchester as well as a local option and I do think Winchester sounds a promising fit.”

Well, let’s hope your laugher is not too premature and not too loud. For it may all turn to tears easily when you suddenly find you’ve made a big blunder. You seem to know fully already your Eton from your Winchester with just a couple of visits to Winchester and probably none at all to Eton with your 10-year-old son.

OP’s specific requirement of a school for her son is one of an all-round education. Frankly, Winchester would be the very last school on my books to meet that requirement. I can think of at least a dozen state schools here in my backyard that better meet OP’s requirement than Winchester.

Listen to what the biggest Winchester cheerleader has to say about her beloved Winchester just a bit further upthread:

”Winchester currently only offers the Pre U, they don't do (I)GCSE Eng Lit or history"
”The lack of compulsory sport is a big one, and sport is never going to be that important there”
”Unlike Eton and probably Harrow there is no drama in the curriculum”

In other words, all the basic fundamentals of a well rounded school are absent.

And you say:
”I absolutely agree that it is NOT about exam results, it is about the whole education of your child.”
Which makes me even more confused about your choice of Winchester.

OP pleaded for a not-too polarised discussion about Eton, Harrow and Winchester. To respect her wishes, I therefore redirect you here. You may find the third paragraph makes particularly interesting reading.

^Oxbridge admissions as a percentage of leavers is, IMVHO, not a useful statistic. What I want to know is the percentage of leavers who went in to do courses that I would be happy to fund my DC to do.
Theology? Classics? MFL? No way.^

I don't disparage those subjects per se one little bit, nor do I ever claim they are lightweight.

at Bobochic

I rest my case. If you have reread my post and still don't understand it... Then your comprehension skills are very weak

" Winchester currently only offers the Pre U, they don't do (I)GCSE Eng Lit or history "

Just to put this in context - The boys are taught Eng Lit and History (in the very frequent Div lessons Happy refers to) they are just not put in for public exams at GCSE level. Plenty go on to do Eng Lit or History at Pre U and beyond.
There is bags of sport and drama on offer (but OP not rugby if that is your son's thing.) IMHO you will get what your last post describes at Winchester but then you will at the other two I am sure.

Best of luck - you & DS have some exciting times ahead. Enjoy your visits.

BoboChic l'm afraid I'm not able to start a 'folie a deux' with you.

OP sorry about the lack of useful information that this exchange of opinions has contributed to your question.

'twas you that started it ;)

I'm not looking for an exam factory.
I'm not looking for a school that prides itself on getting students onto "prestigious" university courses.
When ds looks at options for university study, I will be just as pleased with him studying classics, PPE or anthropology as medicine or law.
15% Oxbridge is good. 30% Oxbridge is good. With 100+ boys in a year both sets of figures reflect schools with a critical mass of really bright children.
Thanks to the helpful posters who've provided info about the schools in question and thanks to the poster who pointed out that attending one of these schools on a bursary may be more affordable than local options: that is most certainly true for us.
I'll have a look at the other threads for some more info. Meanwhile, I have been in touch with two of the admissions offices to arrange visits to the schools and when I've worked out which house ds might like at Winchester we'll sort out a visit there.

Good luck OP! What a thread hey...

needtothink I would ask the admissions person for advice about the Winchester house and wait until your visit to gather information particularly if you ask for an informal music visit. One minor consideration is that although all of the houses have very good musicians, some have housemasters that are more aware of the hard work that goes into musical commitments whilst other housemasters are more enthusiastic about sporting achievements.

Python unrelated to the thread, but for your daughter I would suggest you go with your instincts as to where she will be happy, not academics.

I was a clever kid (unfortunately peaked around age 10..) and I chose (and my parents allowed me) to go to the less academic (still slightly selective), "happier" secondary school instead of the v.v. competitive grammar.

Of course I cant speculate what would have happened at the other school, but it just didn't feel right (on the acceptance letter they told you your rank out of the accepted people! How crushing would it be for a 10yo to find out they were 110/110??), whereas I had a fantastic time at my school, which was very nurturing and really brought me out of my shell. I did leave to go to a different 6th form, but the school got me good GCSEs and much more self-confidence, not to mention a great group of friends.

We have had a Winchester house visit in the last month and will not be proceeding with an application,it is not a school for all rounders,and to be fair it doesnt claim to be but we were surprised by how academic to the exclusion of all else it seemed to be.
Sport-the housemaster was clearly not a fan,he described it as a distraction....
The boys-clearly very bright but seemed in some cases to lack some fairly basic social skills,some clearly couldnt maintain eye contact.
The house itself had facilities that were very poor indeed,the prep room -do I really want the only private space my child has to be a desk and shelf behind a curtain? large dorms for several years(I think the hm said by the sixth form hed only have a couple of boys to share with?)
We only saw a few classrooms,music,art looked good but the labs we saw were like something from the 1930s
The academic results are of course excellent,but so are many other schools with far better facilities.

Where else will you be considering wurzel?

It's true that some boys (and parents) are much happier with rather more personal space in a boarding environment. That may be one of the things that helps you and your DS decide OP. And, of course, whether he's happy with a showy uniform. Which some boys adore. Obviously if you fall in love with the feel of a school you may care less about the details.

(That'll teach me to nc for a lark. When I tried to change back my old name was deemed unusable.)

wurzel I wonder which housemaster that was? Other housemasters would be very pro sport. Maybe the school were trying to put you off if you got matched to the wrong house (unless it was College?).
From what I can gather Winchester is most like an Oxbridge college. Extracurricular opportunities are there and can (at least for some) be pursued to excellence but the reason you are there is for the academics. I think that is the ethos you have to be in tune with to understand the advantages of Winchester.
Having experience of schools with modern spacious facilities, I would always go with excellent staff and pastoral care first and facilities second. For a lot of families the historical buildings of Winchester are a draw though.

He has an elder brother at one of the other schools in the op,so obviously that one,maybe a couple of mixed schools -Rugby or Oundle.
We really wanted to like Winchester,it sounded like it would be a great fit,but it in fact far from being a stretching enviroment it seemed to be a narrow one,uniform doesnt bother us ,but a school where you can basically opt out of sport,where drama and music are seen as extras rather than an integral part of the education,add to that boarding facilities and some teaching facilities that can only be described as primitive and its a non starter from us,even Div ,which we really liked the sound of ,doesnt really kick in to a great extent until the 6th form(or so weve been told by parents that we know)
It didnt help that the hm seemed more interested in telling us about himself and his military career than listening to our son...
Education is about much more than exam results,if we are paying top dollar those are expected,but Winchester really didnt seem to want to offer anything beyond a very narrow academic focus,our son like us wants more from a school.

Wurzel's and TheYahYahYah points show why it is so important to visit and go with what is important as an ensemble to your DS and family.
My DS has chosen not to have a single room for a couple of years now as he prefers the companionship of sharing a room. The boys in his house and other look back very fondly to their shared dormitories and the hall where they did their study. Others might not though so that would be a factor in choosing which boarding school.

Div definitely does start in the first year. There is a focus of being taught history one year and English Literature another year in the junior years but the material covered is nothing to do with any curriculum and it is up to the div don to choose what they want to teach.

Wurzel your post about your experience of Winchester is very similar to a previous poster who was also going to choose Oundle or Rugby. We on the other hand did n't click with Rugby when we visited it.

Sorry just to continue another point, the academic focus is n't narrow. As with the other schools in the list a huge amount is done outside lessons. The school also has its fair share of bright boys who are n't necessarily enamoured of academic work. However they do enjoy the variety of the lesson content.

I think regarding div what our friends meant was that it wasnt really anything more than other schools of similar calibre offer via personal tutors in the fifth form,but they dont call it div,they did say it was excellent in the 6th form but nothing special before that.
Of course we want excellent teaching and pastoral care but other schools manage to combine that with excellent facilities,it seemed that Win almost took a perverse pleasure in how basic some of the facilities were,you may be right,perhaps it was a test,well we failed it.There is no excuse for facilities like that with the fees charged.
We have only visited Rugby for the odd match,no idea if we will even look at co-ed,but if our son wants co-ed(at the moment he doesnt) then its one we would consider,but we really havent thought much about possible co-ed schools.

Sorry,didnt mean the academic focus was narrow,meant to say the focus on academics was/is narrow,does that make sense?
We of course dont have a child at the school but that was the impression we got,that academics is what the school is about to the exclusion of other activities,no problem with a strong academic focus but we believe other activities are important and boys should not be allowed to opt out of them.

I don't think wurzel meant that the academic focus was narrow, rather that the overall focus of the school was concentrated too narrowly on the academics.

I found her comment interesting however, as we had originally been considering Win Coll for our DS, and were steered strongly away from it as his Head felt that he needed a school that was 'fizzy'. I am also a bit surprised that OPs head has recommended both, rather than pointing them at one or the other.

Cross post, but at least it proves I understood your point .

"fizzy" - I rather like that.

So little Johnny - time to think about Big School. Are you fizzy or quirky ?.