Can we have a not-too polarised discussion about Eton, Harrow and Winchester?

[needtothinkaboutseniorschools]

I need to choose a senior school by the end of this year. We're looking at these three after discussion with school. Ds is only 9 so it's difficult to know what he'll be like in 4 years but right now he likes quantum physics, Lego and Dr Who and is very musical. He would be aiming for a music scholarship or exhibition and I trust the advice from the school as they clearly have a lot of experience in recommending senior schools.

I'm amazed we're even thinking about these schools and think all of them look amazing, but I've trawled through other mn threads and seen that some posters have extreme opinions about some of these schools. I'm thinking surely they can't be so different, as they all look great and they take boys from similar prep schools.

So please could I have some informed views on what the schools are like, without it getting too polarised? We will look at all three, but I know that the view you get on an open morning or tour isn't the same as the day-to-day experience.

We are also considering some state schools near to us, as those are good too, but clearly offer a very different experience.

Just to say I have had three children all through different schools , one still at boarding school , and Winchester is the most amazing school , we felt 'lucky ' that our son passed the exams and that we managed to pay his fees until he left. It made him the man he is today .. " a good bloke " is how they come out! Perfect in my mind , not a pretentious bone in his body ...

IndridCold I doubt QE Barnet would ever be in a position to offer 8 languages at A level, I doubt they would have sufficient take up of each language to make it viable. Bear in mind it is a state school. However, all boys have to learn Latin, French and German from years 7 through to the end of year 9.

Your right I was reading the wrong school website for previous results (another high performing state school). I think it's fair to say that there's very little to choose between them if you compare A grades Win Coll achieves slightly more A*'s. SPS and Westminster consistency beat both of them. But as I keep saying it's not just exam results, I strongly suspect the OP is looking for the whole package; an academic environment, extra curricular activities in particular music for her musical DS, sport and boarding.

Mum the bottom line is that no state school can offer what a handful of elite independent schools can. But this is not surprising with fees coming in at 36k+ for boarders and 20k+ for day. You may be interested to know that Win Coll only offers 6 languages at Pre U. I think Latin is compulsory till yr 11 (IGCSE) and at least one MFL although I have to say neither of these two aspects influenced my choice.
I'm not sure what your angle is on all of this, but most of us are trying to help the OP get a feel for three specific schools she's thinking of for her DS. Do you have any personal experience of about Harrow (it would be useful f you did because no one seems to have posted with their own experience of Harrow), Win Coll or Eton?

IndridCold correction, it looks like students can do Modern Greek, Chinese, Japanese, German, French & Turkish at A level at QE.

HG, my angle was to very clear. I did not agree with the point you made. What's more the comment you made about state schools had nothing to do with what the OP was asking either.

”I am more interested in the whole person. My son loves music and I want him to be able to make the most of his talents. I want him to be able to play sport and pursue his interests and grow up in a supportive and intellectually challenging environment. I want him to be interested in the world beyond his own experiences, and to go to a school with a Christian ethos.”

OP, I’m actually quite baffled with your indecision. Three specific schools you are looking at - Eton, Harrow and Winchester. And yet, what you tell us this evening points to one, but only one, school.

Why, it’s ETON through and through!

Quite frankly, I’ve not seen such a clear cut case . . . ever!

The OP's son is 9. In order to gain entry to any one of the three schools mentioned (particularly given his musical talent) he will have to take at least three exams over the next 4 years. Almost all boys already at the schools will have had to take at least two exams including an interview between the ages of ten and 13. At least one of the schools has recently added yet another hurdle to entry. No one undertakes this lightly.

It is utterly absurd to wheel out a compendium of facts and figure in an attempt to persuade the families of such boys that they have inadvertently made a mistake and should immediately withdraw their children and send them to a different, "better" state school.

OP "radiantly happy boarding" and that particular list of schools sounds as if you might be at "our" prep. (Not pa.) I don't see any necessity for polarised debate; everyone would say that their school is best. Visit, then you'll know.

Gruach that they have inadvertently made a mistake and should immediately withdraw their children and send them to a different, "better" state school. If that's what you read from my posts, I would suggest you read again. I questioned a very specific point made by HG. Nothing more. I certainly did not sugges that the OP look at state schools. For all I know the state schools mentioned could be 300 miles from where they live and I know they don't offer boarding facilities.

it looks like students can do Modern Greek, Chinese, Japanese, German, French & Turkish at A level at QE.
Mumtryingherbest you are right in saying that 'it looks like' as apart from French and German, students taking the other MFLs (usually bilingual) are using the school as an exam centre rather than being taught by the school.
There are some very high achieving state schools for exam results, another of my DCs goes to one of the ones mentioned here and it is certainly not an exam factory unlike some others I have heard of. However it does not (and cannot through disparity in funding and differences in staff) deliver the breadth and depth of non examined education which Winchester and other such schools do. The 40+% A* A level equivalent is a very superficial marker of what the boys are taught and achieve academically.

Temporaryusername8 Mumtryingherbest you are right in saying that 'it looks like' as apart from French and German, students taking the other MFLs (usually bilingual) are using the school as an exam centre rather than being taught by the school.

I wasn't aware the school only taught French and German at A level. I stand corrected then.

Bit concerned that they have included those external candidates in their A level resuts. I wouldn't have thought that would be allowed.

In my almost 50 years on this planet I've yet to meet anyone who was taught an MFL to any sort of internationally recognised standard by a school in the UK. Anyone who who achieved anything worthwhile received massive exposure via their families, in one way or another. So it's not really worth arguing about MFL provision.

Bit concerned that they have included those external candidates in their A level resuts.
They would be DCs at the school rather than true external candidates. Perhaps in some cases the A level MFL was facilitated by the school.
I agree that it is a bit dodgy but that is why most exam result tables are.

BoboChic - In my almost 50 years on this planet I've yet to meet anyone who was taught an MFL to any sort of internationally recognised standard by a school in the UK

Perhaps you should have qualified that statement with the addition of "state school". I would imagine the language provision at the private schools mentioned in this thread would be at an international standard, surely?

happygardening - I stand corrected. It would appear, as pointed out by Temporaryusername8 & Disinclined11 that 4 of those A levels counted in the QE results were not actually obtained through the educational provision of the school.

No it's not, Mum.

I'm totally new to this game but this aside one thing I'm looking at potential senior schools for my kids is the leavers' destination and I'm surprised that there has not been much mention of this in the discussion. Of the 3 schools mentioned Eton and Winchester by far send most to Oxbridge and the Ivies each year (above 30%) vs Harrow (closer to 15%). And if that is something which is relevant to your situation, have you considered the London schools Westminster/ St Pauls Boys who have an even better track record of Oxbridge/ Ivies admission?

Manoxlon - Oxbridge admissions as a percentage of leavers is, IMVHO, not a useful statistic. What I want to know is the percentage of leavers who went in to do courses that I would be happy to fund my DC to do.

Theology? Classics? MFL? No way.

Mumtryingherbest I don't know for sure, just surmising from other circumstantial evidence. However I am pretty sure that % results tables without individual subject results don't show up things like this or the use of subjects such as General Studies to increase points and percentages.

I also don't think BoboChic teaches MFLs at a university and therefore is not in the position to judge relative MFL teaching in any meaningful cross section analysis. However it goes without saying that Germany, Scandinavia, Holland etc are far superior in their teaching of MFLs from my contact with colleagues.

It's a fair point that what the kids go on to study matters when it's being funded out of pocket (esp if you're considering the States) and also if you perceive an undergraduate degree as a means to get into Grad/ Med/ Law school or as your last port of call before hitting the job market. Having said that from what I've seen on these school websites what the kids go on to study tends to be quite broad- medicine (UK), Law, PPE, Economics as well as languages and classics (not an uncommon major for many who land their first jobs at the big City banks).

You don't have to perceive a UG degree as training for a career to judge its academic quality and the likelihood that the student will emerge with a well-trained mind able to form cogent arguments.

BoboChic your idea or bias of what UG degrees facilitate a well trained mind is just an opinion (unless of course you are an employer of some sought after company involved in recruitment or on the faculty of an internationally renowned university and regularly judge fellowship applications.)

I spent many years recruiting for one of those sought after international companies. We recruited from all over the planet/trained recruits in multinational groups across continents.

Well it sounds as though your bias might have affected your judgement in recruitment, not a sign of a well trained mind.
As an academic in a STEM subject I regularly have the chance to enjoy discussions with and between academics in the subjects you disparage. Some of the most well trained minds IMO (and others) are philosophers and classicists.

So pleased this isn't my thread. I would be weeping with frustration right now.

I should hope that someone with a serious academic career has a well-trained mind. That's not the population I was (as a professional) recruiting and training from. Undergraduate degree courses vary markedly, within the same highly sought after universities, in their ability to deliver well-trained minds.

Yes quite, poor OP!

I have to say that we never looked at A level results or university destinations, as Eton's reputation was well known.

The best advice on this thread is still 'Go and have a look!'. You will get a feel of how the schools differ, and which one will suit your DS most comfortably.