At what point is going private NOT worth it?

[lexlees]

I was chatting to a friend recently and we got chatting about schools. Their only daughter goes to a top private school and it is a real financial strain on them. They reckon they spend 40% of their net family income on school fees and extras. All her wages go towards the school fees and even then only covers 2/3 of it - the remaining third comes from her husband's salary.

From my perspective I don't see how it is worth it. She maintained that it is not unusual. They just want their child to have 'every advantage' because both she and her husband went private.

Their girl is bright but didn't qualify for any bursary or scholarship and failed to get into the selective state school (they did try all three). Although the girl was top of her class in her state primary, she now feels so much pressure because she hasn't gotten an 'A' in anything yet. She is now no longer the bright one and it took two terms to make friends. I'd love to say she is a lovely girl, but honestly, she is an ungrateful and mean brat (she used to beat up/be cruel to my ds every time they were alone - then lie about it - hence I don't bring my ds anymore to their house).

They are putting minimal money into pensions and have only 'one term's worth' of savings. They haven't had a holiday for two to three years, never eat out and hardly buy stuff (except for stuff for their daughter - so she doesn't feel 'left out' at school) as they have a mortgage as well. They also don't have parental financial support or expect much of any inheritance either. I feel like my friend has changed into some penny pinching miser, always working out how to save pennies and she is just worn out from a low paid job!

It got me wondering if other people are just making ends meet to send a child or children private. Is she correct that it is normal? At what point does it become NOT worth it.

I agree. Bright, well supported kids do well anywhere.

And I agree with SheGot

Haven't read every post but hope the person you are talking about Lexlees as I'm sure should would recognise herself and her "spoilt brat" daughter!

I've noticed this topic come up a fair bit recently on MN. I agree BR that "bright well supported kids will do well anywhere." I have always been totally opposed to private education so was somewhat gobsmacked when my DIL said their only child was not going to the local comp at 11. She took the exam for the grammar school in their area but didn't pass and so she is at a private all girls school (around 400 girls) - she started in Yr 7 and is now in Yr 11, and will be going on into the 6th form. My son said private education would never have "crossed his radar" but I think he went along with it as the "line of least resistance" They are making sacrifices to pay the fees.

Having said all that I have to say that DGD has thrived at this school (in the lower school before they split off for GCSE subjects, there were 11 in the class) The school was a house at one time so there are acres of grounds, a swimming pool, dance studio, theatre, hockey pitches, tennis courts etc. I don't know if it's the location (it's in a very affluent area) but all the girls seem to come from wealthy families. DGD lives on the wrong sides of the tracks!

She has a nice group of friends but as soon as the school holidays come, they are all off on holiday, and so DGD is lucky if she gets to see one or two of them in between returning from holiday and going on the next one. DGD says they don't say "are you going on holiday" they say "where are you going on holiday........" DGD has both feet firmly on the floor and is not affected by this wealth, although she did say recently that sometimes she can't help being amazed at the size of their houses.

We were talking recently and she said "I remember in Yr 7 X put her hand up in maths and said "I don't get that" and the teacher went over and over it till everyone understood. This girl (like most of them) had been in the junior part of the school so presumably was used to asking for explanations. I know it's only a small thing, but that wouldn't happen in a state school.

My son is a primary school teacher in a very deprived area and there was a school trip recently which cost £77 but the school charged parents £50 and paid the balance from school funds. Out of 90 children, only 20 were able to go on the trip, obviously because of the cost. SO there you have both ends of the spectrum.

I think all children should have the opportunities that are offered in private schools, but of course that's never going to happen.

I meant to say that "I hope the person you are talking about Lexlees isn't on MN as I feel sure she would recognised herself and her "spoilt brat" daughter.

Bright kids = bullying. This is a comment that a woman I know makes continually and one of the justifications she uses to send her kids to private school. She says was bullied because she was bright.
Ergo, if you weren't bullied at state school you must be thick. You can get bullied anywhere for a number of reasons. This woman cannot see that she rubs people up the wrong way when she continually boasts about her achievements (at great length). If she is like this as an adult I can only imagine at school she was similar and rubbing up school children the wrong way can make you a victim of bullying because they cannot vocalise their annoyance in an adult manner.
When I'd heard for the umpteenth time of her bullying experience for being top of the class I asked her if she knew how clever I was at school. She looked puzzled and shook her head. I said, well you don't know because I don't go on about it because it comes over as boastful and that's more likely to get you bullied than being bright. Cue the tumbleweed moment as the penny finally dropped.
But I digress. It's up to each individual family. If my child was going through hell at a crappy state school then I'd seriously consider going private but at the moment they are doing fine, lots of extra curricular activities and they stay within the community so no lengthy commute. If at any time they might need a bit of extra help then I'd get a tutor in as it's a lot cheaper than sending them to private school.

I am from India and really amazed to see the discussion as I had a real different opinion about western countries .ie. US, UK. But looks like issues are same everywhere. I always thought schools are superior there, parents are not selfless there ( as in spending all money on private education when state schooling is also not that bad, everybody now knows when we don't have any scope of being taken care by our kids in our old age i.e financially, emotionally and still putting all our money for supposedly best education for our children for which we are not even sure of their success in future).

Our parents didn't do much on our generation ( in India) but most of us ( sorry talking about families like us) where we are well educated n doing good in our career and seeing same issues with our kids which you guys are describing. Most of Indian metro's children move out of India for higher education because of reservation system for downtrodden cast 60 years ago but now it has become a vote bank issue and there is no seat for bright general category system, so our generation of parents are literally in same situation as our counterparts in western developed countries as cost of living is high rocketed in metros like Delhi, Bangalore, Bombay...

  I wonder where this world is heading to  with so insecure and unsafe future despite each generation making good progress over their parental generation. I guess its problem of so called successful yet stressful eco system.... we need to go back to roots again where life was simple yet stress-less with less needs

I was privately educated from 6th form but in NZ. There's more bullying in the private school then the state school I attended. And bright students are definitely not celebrated. It's the jocks that ruled the school. It's one of the prestigious privates in Auckland. Of course all private schools are different. But maybe that's why I'm not very fond of private schools.

One of the biggest issues in education, IMO, is that teachers are paid so badly relative to many other jobs that require undergraduate plus postgraduate plus qualifying training. Career progression isn't very good either - there is only so far you can go in a school.

So you get situations where parents are a lot more educated than the teachers they are entrusting with their DCs' education, which is a very stressful situation for all concerned.

Ironically I think there is a tendency to over qualification in many jobs. I'm sure there are plenty folk out there who would make great teachers but aren't quite academic enough (oh the irony of that given the OP title). Too much emphasis is put on academia. Despite having a higher education I know I would be a totally crap teacher. It's a gifted job and I applaud anyone who does it or can do it. Qualifications are no substitute for just having that knack with children.

"I think cultural capital is about being part of the 'snobs'."
What on earth does that mean?

So you get situations where parents are a lot more educated than the teachers they are entrusting with their DCs' education, which is a very stressful situation for all concerned.

Is that really a problem? You will have to go way back before the teachers are always better educated than the parents. I don't think you can pay enough to have teachers always better educated, given that you only need an undergraduate degree to teach. Where I live, I would imagine most parents are degree educated, for example. I certainly don't expect them to all have masters.

And to give you some perspective, when you do a PhD, your supervisor doesn't necessarily know more about the topic than. By the end of the PhD, you are supposed to be a subject matter expert. Your supervisor is a mentor.

From wikipedia Cultural capital: forms of knowledge, skills, education, and advantages that a person has, which give them a higher status in society.

In other words, it's the assurance that you are better than others in society. It's just another way of putting it.

Yes, it's a problem. It's difficult for DC to respect teachers who are wrong or poorly skilled when they are surrounded by adults in their home life whose example is so much better.

Cultural capital is something that makes you feel you are of a higher status, that you are better than the rest. By definition, it's a 'snob' (if you say it bluntly). Obviously you don't have to be in your face in your superiority. You could just feel you are better than those poor kids from the local comps.

Actually that last statement reminded me of my kids' old playgroup. Staffed by the most wonderful, caring, loving, nurturing people you could ever dream to find but it eventually was closed because none of them had the right qualifications and weren't prepared to go and get them as they were all ladies in their 40s or 50s who had a lifetime of experiences.

"you get situations where parents are a lot more educated than the teachers they are entrusting with their DCs' education, which is a very stressful situation for all concerned."

Really? I'm probably better educated than most of my children's teachers- but I am not educated to teach. They are.

But teaching is one of those jobs that people think anyone can do. It isn't.

BertramRussell- no, it wasn't a generalisation about state schools. There are lots of good state schools close to where I live (and actually the closest schools to where I live) that I would LOVE to send my children too. Note the use of the word good- not excellent. It is not that I want to send my children to one of the best state schools in the country, I just don't want to send them to one of the worst.

My post was about ONE failing state school that is the only school my children can realisticly go to, and which is the school I went to. It is This Particular State School that my post was about. I would rather scrimp and save and send my children private than send them to That School. If we lived in the catchment of another state school (or could afford the catchment area prices) then they would go to state school.

Is the question another way of asking for your order of priorities?

There are a number of things we value and need, some of which cost us directly, some of which we pay together for.

If education is a higher priority than food and shelter, you might have an issue. If education is a higher priority than mental health, ditto. There might be lots of things that are less of a priority - skiing holidays, organic food, etc, etc.

The answer is different for all of us as we a) have different circumstances, b) have different priorities, and c) have different choices of school available.

So basically, I haven't answered the question at all .... fail.

volup so what you are saying is that it is my fault I was bullied as I must be really annoying?? thanks for that.

Nothing to do with having nothing in common with the other kids who smashed up chairs during lesson and burnt aerosols and pierced their ears rather than learning. Nothing to do with me having an ethos of behaving and wanting to learn and them thinking good behaviour and knowledge were the work of the devil.

Why is it that nobody ever condemns the entire private sector if they have a bad experience in one private school?

Bertrand - you are conflating teaching skills and subject knowledge.

All the teaching skills in the world won't help you teach something you don't master. Without proper subject knowledge by teachers, DC are constantly short changed and spend hours learning very little.

My DP and I are not teachers but between us we have the subject knowledge to cover most of the secondary curriculum (and we have it at our fingertips). We have absolutely no difficulty getting that subject knowledge across to our DC (or other people's DC) when the occasion arises. When DC fail to learn or understand something at school it is almost inevitably because the teacher didn't fully grasp what they were trying to impart. They lacked subject knowledge far more often than teaching skills.

"There are lots of good state schools close to where I live (and actually the closest schools to where I live) that I would LOVE to send my children too"

So if it's the closest school to where you live, why won't your children get in?

"All the teaching skills in the world won't help you teach something you don't master. Without proper subject knowledge by teachers, DC are constantly short changed"

Where are all these teachers without proper subject knowledge?

British state schools are full of them, Bertrand. The UK has one of the worst educated (in subject knowledge) teacher work forces in Europe though other countries are catching up