At what point is going private NOT worth it?

[lexlees]

I was chatting to a friend recently and we got chatting about schools. Their only daughter goes to a top private school and it is a real financial strain on them. They reckon they spend 40% of their net family income on school fees and extras. All her wages go towards the school fees and even then only covers 2/3 of it - the remaining third comes from her husband's salary.

From my perspective I don't see how it is worth it. She maintained that it is not unusual. They just want their child to have 'every advantage' because both she and her husband went private.

Their girl is bright but didn't qualify for any bursary or scholarship and failed to get into the selective state school (they did try all three). Although the girl was top of her class in her state primary, she now feels so much pressure because she hasn't gotten an 'A' in anything yet. She is now no longer the bright one and it took two terms to make friends. I'd love to say she is a lovely girl, but honestly, she is an ungrateful and mean brat (she used to beat up/be cruel to my ds every time they were alone - then lie about it - hence I don't bring my ds anymore to their house).

They are putting minimal money into pensions and have only 'one term's worth' of savings. They haven't had a holiday for two to three years, never eat out and hardly buy stuff (except for stuff for their daughter - so she doesn't feel 'left out' at school) as they have a mortgage as well. They also don't have parental financial support or expect much of any inheritance either. I feel like my friend has changed into some penny pinching miser, always working out how to save pennies and she is just worn out from a low paid job!

It got me wondering if other people are just making ends meet to send a child or children private. Is she correct that it is normal? At what point does it become NOT worth it.

my local state secondaries (part of a consortium) play against the local private secondaries regularly for Crticket, Rugby and athletics and to a lesser degree basketball and football

I'm sure they do. The point is that given greater flexibility of funding and timetabling, a few private schools focus on sport at a high level and achieve accordingly.

There is no guarantee that any private school will be better than any state school at anything simply because it is private.

I agree that, just looking at exam results, the best state selectives out perform many, many private schools. This isn't that surprising as while private schools can be selective to an extent, they can only accept a very limited amount of pupils who can't pay their fees. (Excepting eg specialist music schools).

State v. Private always comes down to individual schools and individual children.

I dont plan for a music scholarship to be honest as for us learning music should only a hobby and learning new skills, for music skills its easy to learn when we are young. But I think there must be a minimum for a child to apply(grade 5 maybe so not wasting people's time testing on mass applications, then after the grade 5 it isnt automatically meant that the highest grade will get the scholarship

Newlife - not sure I agree with your 'it's a few pieces and scales. Grade 8 piano IMO is somewhat more than a few pieces and scales. DS aged 13 is studying for grade 8 on 2 instruments - not the only one but not many at that level. He got a scholarship at 13+ playing grade 7 pieces. He's pretty task focused so likes ticking off grades! Elder DS stopped grades after grade 6 on 2 instruments but still has lessons and plays lots of own choice on piano particularly with or without music. I'd agree that up to about grade 5 on the piano they just pretty much learned grade pieces and couldn't just 'play' other stuff and didn't play for pleasure. They can now pick up and 'just play' loads of music. It's not easy getting to grade 8.

@mum: it might be slightly different with violin where the positioning, fingering, holding bow must be correct when you start, it could be very daunting and hard start, from our experience have a private tutor has made a huge different. Sometimes we are so frustrated that we think we have to accept that coming to school and doing any extra curr is only for having fun(or because my child isnt talented at any)

I'm not saying it's easy to reach grade 8 at all, just that I hear people of this level who can't think of what to play because all they've learned is 27 pieces.

I know 8 year olds who have grade 8 piano and a 6 year old who had to wait because his span wasn't big enough to manage the gr8 pieces.
yes, they practised for hours a day, but they didn't find it difficult.
I think my point was also that a gr8 player doesn't make you a musician, but somebody who has passed exams.

My point about the level expectations for scholarships came from the experiences of two families I know from different private schools.
The more gr8's who applied pushed up the expectations, because the schools expect the best whether thats a cohort of gr6 or gr8 players for that intake.

merrymouse I agree that, just looking at exam results, the best state selectives out perform many, many private schools

Just to be clear, my local selectives are not grammar schools they only select between 10% - 25% on academic, 10% on music, 5% on sport and 5% on technology.

The local/crossover privates are Habs, MT, SAHS, NLCS etc.

In term of academic then top schools(private or state/grammar) will have top results the point was if I could afford the fees comfortably chosing between 2 equally good ranking schools then ofcourse I choose private where I have freedom of more choices in studying subjects, better facility, could be better communication better school and family too which I find its hard with my daughter state primary. I am also hoping the level of school responses to my questions/queries will be much faster/better

equally good ranking schools then ofcourse I choose private where I have freedom of more choices in studying subjects, better facility, could be better communication better school and family too which I find its hard with my daughter state primary. I am also hoping the level of school responses to my questions/queries will be much faster/better

Not necessarily. You have to look at the school. For instance my local comprehensive is attached to a good quality sports centre and has much better sports facilities than many/most private schools.

Just because somebody sets up a school and charges fees, doesn't make it any good. Private schools and State schools all have disadvantages and advantages and many are specific to them and wouldn't apply to another state or private school.

To the OP original question the answer to me is to the point that the whole family risking their future happiness and financial certainty and being miserable. Then as long as they are happy and can afford it then its their choice and if they find its worth it then its their decision!

As parents we love our children more than our lives so investing in our children rounded future is important to us and if a little sacrifices here and then its not important, having them being happy and well equipped and have more choice in their future is more important. Though only to some extend that we must be happy and ok too and there should never any pressure on them as its really our choice and our decision(well saying it we still send our child to state now but saving for her private education from secondary)

I have certainly experienced better communication from the private school v state. That's just my experience though.

I don't know whether the differences in general we experienced are to do with state v private or the fact the private school was selective.

My guess is that it is much easier to produce extra curricular activities with enthusiastic and able students. The imagination was much greater in the private school. For example, the choir had a uniform to wear when performing a concert. There is no choir at the state school.

I am not saying you can't bridge the gap, but it was evident to me there was a lot of extra input. For example university preparation interviews were done with a visiting person who was a uni tutor in that subject. I doubt that happens often in state schools.

I suppose I have been able to compare current provision in this area as I had one until recently in private, and still have one in the local state school.

Headof, thank you for sharing your experience

Everytime we have anything to ask at school we have to be "super" polite as it looks like we are begging for favours(its only an impression and might not be true anywhere else) from the school admin to all teachers. Communication is restricted and if we have a quick response then it came as a surprise.

As foreigners we always tell each other"well its a state free school then what are you asking for" even in principle we have every right to ask for what we asked!!

Headofthehive55 as you rightly point out your experience is of a non selective state school and a selective private schools (all privates are selective by the way due to the fees).

Perhaps it would be fairer to compare a selective state school with a selective private school?

"
My guess is that it is much easier to produce extra curricular activities with enthusiastic and able students. And lots of money The imagination was much greater in the private school. For example, the choir had a uniform to wear when performing a concert. Needs lots of money There is no choir at the state school.There is in others. But it need somebody to organise and lead it. Which involves money

I am not saying you can't bridge the gap, but it was evident to me there was a lot of extra input. For example university preparation interviews were done with a visiting person who was a uni tutor in that subject. I doubt that happens often in state schools. What- a university tutor in each different subject that people might want to study? And from every university? Gosh- how very...expansive!

"Communication is restricted"

I suggest you send in a note to the teacher with your child asking her to ring you. Or send a quick email.

Greenleave did you actually do any research into the primary school your DC goes to before you applied or was it the only one you could get a place at?

Yes I agree mum but there is no state selective in our area so I have no experience to compare.

Bertrand there's bugger all point having interview prep from any uni tutor who isn't a med school tutor for medicine or an Oxbridge tutor/ graduate for Oxbridge. A lot of what is offered is there simply to please the parents. The very top schools will get it right but the tier two provision can be ridiculous.

Agree Bertrand. I've never had any problem with communication, not that I communicate much. But on those rare occasions that I do need to I simply e-mail and generally get a response within a few hours.

Bert: we had a very unpleasant experience with yr2 teacher and we never had an email address of a teacher until this year. My daughter was always very good at maths to the level that she learnt all times table from year 1 in and out and at beg of year 2 she was told to slow down. There was zero things she learnt in yr2, every days she went home and said she was so bored. We tried to ask for extra support but the answer was zero. She had 2 detentions due to drawing on her friends' shirts during maths lesson even she has been considered a very polite and well behaved child. We were told to slow down to the point was we stop learning maths at all in any aspect. This year is slightly better she hasnt complained about being bored but everytime we asked what did you learn from the maths lesson today etc then the answer was always there wasnt a maths lesson or mommy it was very easy still times table. In our 10 (sharp) meeting the teacher minutes we were told that school doesnt have any particular support/clubs/competition for children good at maths.

Well blessed her she adores her teachers(even the last year one as I had the impression he wasnt fond of her and was very upset with her drawing on her friends shirts incidents), she loves her school and coming to school. We just know that if we want her to be progressed at maths then we have to help her much more outside school

"They do actually, the same with music teachers.
The schools can afford to pay for the best to come in and the state peri's just don't touch it I'm afraid.
Saying that I don't think you have to attend a private school to access some of these activities at a high level, you can do it just the same by paying privately."

The whole of our LA takes music tuition seriously. I get 'the best' tutors for my DC at a very subsidised price (FREE if they are doing Music GCSE) and the school tutor has brought my DC in leaps and bounds since leaving a good private tutor we had until the end of Yr 7.
It can often depend on the priorities of the school. A state school which prizes music (and I know 2 in my catchment) can offer top quality opportunities.

I agree bertrand. There were staff who led the music but didn't teach. Money. It costs. I can see the difference and the effects. One had 200 students giving an all day concert, one had six students playing a few pieces. One is inspirational, one not so much.

Not sure the uni interview experience was in all subjects but it was for my DD. I'm just comparing the two schools. As I say though it might be to do with one being selective.

@mum: the school is an outstanding since it was set up (must be 60 years or smth) and the catchment area is ridiculous, all teachers are "nice", nothing big for us to complain! We just have to accept it is a state school so dont ask too much then you are happy!(then ofcourse I do understand I might not get what I want from every private school either)(its in a very expensive area where for the same house somewhere else you could afford any private from the different between 2 house prices for 12 years of education but we love the area, we wont move

*Greenleave - @mum: the school is an outstanding since it was set up (must be 60 years or smth) - so you chose the school on the basis of an ofsted report (I doubt the school will have had an outstanding rating for the last 60 years btw) and a small catchment?

Did you actually visit the school before applying?

I think 'Outstanding' can be a bit like a 4 star hotel rating. Boxes may have been tucked but it may not be the best fit for everyone.