At what point is going private NOT worth it?

[lexlees]

I was chatting to a friend recently and we got chatting about schools. Their only daughter goes to a top private school and it is a real financial strain on them. They reckon they spend 40% of their net family income on school fees and extras. All her wages go towards the school fees and even then only covers 2/3 of it - the remaining third comes from her husband's salary.

From my perspective I don't see how it is worth it. She maintained that it is not unusual. They just want their child to have 'every advantage' because both she and her husband went private.

Their girl is bright but didn't qualify for any bursary or scholarship and failed to get into the selective state school (they did try all three). Although the girl was top of her class in her state primary, she now feels so much pressure because she hasn't gotten an 'A' in anything yet. She is now no longer the bright one and it took two terms to make friends. I'd love to say she is a lovely girl, but honestly, she is an ungrateful and mean brat (she used to beat up/be cruel to my ds every time they were alone - then lie about it - hence I don't bring my ds anymore to their house).

They are putting minimal money into pensions and have only 'one term's worth' of savings. They haven't had a holiday for two to three years, never eat out and hardly buy stuff (except for stuff for their daughter - so she doesn't feel 'left out' at school) as they have a mortgage as well. They also don't have parental financial support or expect much of any inheritance either. I feel like my friend has changed into some penny pinching miser, always working out how to save pennies and she is just worn out from a low paid job!

It got me wondering if other people are just making ends meet to send a child or children private. Is she correct that it is normal? At what point does it become NOT worth it.

"why these threads always turn into a debate on how many students go to Oxbridge."

Percentage of leavers achieving places at Oxbridge is one of a number of widely-accepted measures of (perceived) school quality. It's not special to MN.

None of my bright children applied to Oxbridge (although my siblings went). They could have had a go but the ones through that stage so far didn't want to do the extra work (extra classes at school) and thought they would not get in. I would have supported them had they wanted to but they seem to specialise in being laid back.......

Of course the best private schools get a lot to Oxbridge as they are very selective - my daughter was at North London Collegiate where I think they send about 40 girls a year go to Oxbridge. (By the way the fact my daughters didn't go (went to Bristol and Nottingham U does not seem to have hindered their London legal careers)).

"TOP SCHOOLS FOR OXBRIDGE*

Magdalen College School, Oxfordshire (independent) 36%

Oxford High School, Oxfordshire (independent) 36%

Westminster School, London (independent) 34%

St Paul's Girls' School, London (independent) 31%

Wycombe Abbey School, Buckinghamshire (independent) 30%

St Paul's School, London (independent) 29%

The Henrietta Barnett School, London (state grammar) 24%

Guildford High School, Surrey (independent) 23%

The Stephen Perse Foundation, Cambridgeshire (independent) 23%

Eton College, Windsor (independent) 22%

North London Collegiate School, London (independent) 22%

*Figures relate to students going straight into higher education at 18. Excludes pupils taking gap years. "

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10928169/Private-school-pupils-five-times-as-likely-to-go-to-Oxbridge.html

baby your friends seem a rather homogenous lot.

Most parents I know don't have particular career aspirations for their DC. They do however support DC who want to go down those roads. Usually because they themselves have done so and found it rewarding ( both financially and intellectually).

Society is not especially adventurous. The upper middle classes for the most part stick to what they know. Ditto the middle classes, the working classes. This isn't a private school thing per se.

There is an amusing amount of smugness amongst some of the independent school parents on this thread. Personally, I have no problem if some parents want to spend large amounts of money on private schooling, but I do think the benefits are more perceived than actual.

At Cambridge, I knew quite a few people from some of the illustrious schools that you mention, as well as many lesser known private schools, and not one of them was able to "coast" through their degree. Quite the contrary, in fact.

They also weren't any better equipped to cope with the pressure of that environment - lots of eating disorders, mental health problems etc. Of course, I realise that anecdote doesn't equal data and that state school pupils are probably equally likely to suffer from those issues across the population as a whole, but in my cohort, such issues happened to be much more prevalent among those who had gone to the "elite" schools.

As for outcomes, I don't believe that my independently educated friends were any better educated than my friends from state schools. They were not more rounded, or indeed, more confident when you scratched below the surface (although I will acknowledge that many of them managed to create a semblance of confidence even when they were not - something that my state educated friends had not learnt). Nor are my privately educated friends now any happier or more successful, as a group, than those of us who went through the state system.

There are so many factors that are important, school is just one part of the picture. In my view, parental influences and access to social networks have the biggest impact. Of course, some people choose to buy access to those social networks by paying for a private education. The rest of us just rely on the networks of our privately educated friends!

Indeed kampeki.

I often find that parents who are ideologically opposed to private education or consider it a waste of money are not averse to asking for favours from DH and I .

But Kampeki, you are talking about the subgroup of state-educated people who managed to make it to Cambridge. Clearly their state schooling was fine, and as good as or better than private, or they wouldn't have been there. But you can't logically conclude from that that all, or even the majority of state schools are as good or better than private, and that there is therefore no need to state school parents to be concerned. And indeed, there are many (like myself) whose local school most definitely is not very good for academically-minded children.

Never mind Oxbridge, the head of SPGS has queried whether university is worth it for Paulinas. She obviously has an impoverished view of education and its purpose, one that only the super-entitled can afford to hold, as Grace Dent eloquently put it in The Independent:
www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-degrees-are-useless-theory-is-fine-if-youre-posh-assertive-and-lucky-the-only-people-it-fails-10386284.html

Whatever CF says, the fact remains that most young women at SPGS and others like it want to go to university.

Their parents want them to go to university.

And not many firms want 18 year olds.

Granola Great article! I especially liked the bit about standing up for her daughter's right to learn to hate Derrida as much as she does .

But you find that attitude in a lot of people, expressed in various ways. For example, professional writers arguing that children don't need to be taught grammar and sentence structure, because they managed to pick it up through reading, for example. Or gifted mathematicians saying children don't need to learn times tables because they never did.

No, don't all start a private school Mum ghetto. I love a good school choice angst thread .

But it's an interesting idea that an SPGS education is sufficient on its own to secure a top job. You could save on uni fees. Could this be a new USP for schools like CF's?

I really don't think so granola.

18 is still young. Even with the very best schooling, an 18 year old won't have been exposed to enough things to be of serious use to the sorts of firms CF is talking about.

Not enough time. And time is one of the main benefits of an UG degree I think.

A "University No Thanks" movement by posh people could help to widen access for the majority. So perhaps to be encouraged.

There are concerns in some corners that it might become Oxbridge No Thanks in certain schools.

With pupils in those schools heading to London and overseas (especially the states).

kes, I'm not saying that all state schools are excellent, I know that they are not. Neither are all private schools, for that matter. There are some pretty rubbish ones near me!

What I'm saying is that even the "best" indies don't necessarily produce better outcomes for the kids of educated, committed and well-connected parents, because the children of such parents are likely to do equally well in the state system. Unfortunately, the kids who could really benefit from what the private schools have to offer are the ones who won't have the opportunity to go to those schools in any case.

I guess it's about confidence in the end. I am confident that my dd is bright and motivated. I am confident in my ability to choose a great state school and I'm confident in my ability to fill in any gaps through paying for extra-curricular activities and giving my dd exposure to all sorts of social situations. If I wasn't confident, I would certainly consider private as an option - we only have one dc and we could comfortably afford the investment. At the moment, though, I don't think there would be any significant benefit, so I will save the money for dd's future instead.

I am not criticising anyone who makes different choices. We all have different circumstances, after all. I am merely objecting to some of the smuggery on this thread, which seems to me to be misplaced.

As for "favours" shegot, they go both ways. I don't tend to consider which schools they went to when my friends ask me for something...

Her niece kesstrel.

Top universities are stuffed with girls from St Paul's. The St Paul's parents I know best are absolutely desperate to have their two end up at the same top uni that they both went to and have been since the children were four. I don't think top unis are going to go out of fashion with either parents or kids at the school anytime soon, even though there are a number of these offers for school leavers flying around.

Oxbridge and med school places are the usual headline measures for a school on results day and generally, however irritating that may be (it doesn't irritate me overly but it obviously bothers some). I don't think that's going to change soon either.

In answer to the OP I'd say independent school isn't worth it unless all the alternatives in your area are utterly crap and you're not going to beggar yourself paying. There are legions of incredibly mediocre independents out there and only a small number of powerhouses, just as there are only a small number of Div 1 schools in the state sector. But why pay for mediocrity or worse?

The four DC of mine who have now graduated are very different prospects from the young freshers that they were, but they were, admittedly, state educated. Nevertheless I think it's fair to say that they've each been transformed, in terms of their thinking. The debt is small by comparison to the gain.

Kampeki I assume DaMoves is implying that they want help with internships/ leg ups etc. In other words, they aren't averse to nepotism, just paying for school :)

That's about the size of it molio.

People's double standards and cheek is a thing to behold!

Molio, no double standards from me. I will use any connections that I have to give my dd the best shot in life. I know the system is unfair, but it is what is it is.

The reason I don't send dd to a private school is not because I'm morally superior. It's because I don't think it's worth the investment.

One of my DCs in response to the do you really want to go to university question was 'why on earth would you not want to go to university if you had the chance as it allows you a time of freedom to learn and debate and do things with lots of new friends.'
It is true that working and the job market is there for the rest of their lives so the idea that school is enough for them to go straight into their professional careers when they still want to explore learning is a shame.

kesstrel is right that it is a numbers game. Most children from the better private schools tend to get to a good university and most do well. It is about increasing odds.

Also most teenagers follow the herd. Their peers matter more than their parents whom they often don't like and want to do the opposite of in terms of any advice given (although one of my teenagers currently says that is not so and he does take account of my advice). So in a sense if you have a bright child and choose to pay for a school like St Paul's then you are buying a peer group who work hard. You can of course procure that through house prices in the state sector even in areas without state grammar schools but it's harder.

Such is the lure of medicine from the parents for my sons' mostly asian private school that it gets particular prominence (not law anything like as much actually which one of mine might do but that's not a problem for me).

Why would people not want their children in an interesting well paid career which has high status and reasonably secure prospects. It will only be I who might delight at my graduate son the postman who has the courage of his own convictions.....

Kampeki "What I'm saying is that even the "best" indies don't necessarily produce better outcomes for the kids of educated, committed and well-connected parents, because the children of such parents are likely to do equally well in the state system."

I think the key word there must be "well-connected". Because there are plenty of educated and committed parents who do end up sending their children to less effective state schools, usually because they can't afford to do otherwise. And there is simply no evidence that such children do equally well. Also, many parents start by using the local school, only to discover that their children aren't getting the academic ethos and pushing that they need, so they move to a private school and find their children do much better.

"I am confident in my ability to choose a great state school". As stated above, many people do not have such a school within a reasonable distance of where they work, or would struggle to pay enough to get into the catchment. In addition, It can be difficult to identify "great" state schools; our school has excellent results, but they get them on the back of blatant cheating on controlled assessments (something I only discovered after DD2 had been through the GCSE process).

SheGotAllDaMoves I often find that parents who are ideologically opposed to private education or consider it a waste of money are not averse to asking for favours from DH and I lol, gotta love it, cap in hand "spare any bread guvnor".

Are these the people who don't make it into the 1% of the country who own million-pound houses.

Just thinking about internships (sorry, digression!) My DH works in a large bank in The City. Kids in the neighbourhood (all state school btw) need to do these 2 week job experience things. He is more than happy to take them along to witness the scintillation that is corporate banking. However, he can't. The bank has made it so bureaucratic and difficult to bring anyone in that it is a nonstarter. I am sure part of the reason this is discouraged is due to risk assessments. No extra people on the premises = no additional risk. But there is also a reputational risk. They don't want to be seen doing personal favours. Which frankly these would be. The bank may well have some specific program aimed at kids in Tower Hamlets or something. I don't know.

Ultimately, he could pull two or three kids through a year with no skin off his nose, but he is blocked from doing it. Meanwhile, the 15 years old tend to go see what working in an infant school is like because they are just about the last places that will take the children as no other businesses can be bothered.

Making things fair is great. But sometimes policing fairness is so burdensome that opportunities just collapse.

(BTW, his bank is not the exception. After DH couldn't do it, I asked around to other professionals we know. The consultants wouldn't do it either.)