At what point is going private NOT worth it?

[lexlees]

I was chatting to a friend recently and we got chatting about schools. Their only daughter goes to a top private school and it is a real financial strain on them. They reckon they spend 40% of their net family income on school fees and extras. All her wages go towards the school fees and even then only covers 2/3 of it - the remaining third comes from her husband's salary.

From my perspective I don't see how it is worth it. She maintained that it is not unusual. They just want their child to have 'every advantage' because both she and her husband went private.

Their girl is bright but didn't qualify for any bursary or scholarship and failed to get into the selective state school (they did try all three). Although the girl was top of her class in her state primary, she now feels so much pressure because she hasn't gotten an 'A' in anything yet. She is now no longer the bright one and it took two terms to make friends. I'd love to say she is a lovely girl, but honestly, she is an ungrateful and mean brat (she used to beat up/be cruel to my ds every time they were alone - then lie about it - hence I don't bring my ds anymore to their house).

They are putting minimal money into pensions and have only 'one term's worth' of savings. They haven't had a holiday for two to three years, never eat out and hardly buy stuff (except for stuff for their daughter - so she doesn't feel 'left out' at school) as they have a mortgage as well. They also don't have parental financial support or expect much of any inheritance either. I feel like my friend has changed into some penny pinching miser, always working out how to save pennies and she is just worn out from a low paid job!

It got me wondering if other people are just making ends meet to send a child or children private. Is she correct that it is normal? At what point does it become NOT worth it.

Things were different here in the eighties.

There were huge pockets of resistance in politics, music, comedy, drama, literature. Large swathes of people refused to buy into the paradigm, and refused vocally.

It feels like this has all evaporated now.

Possibly. The dumbing-down of education is clear cut.

A leaflet through my door yesterday reminded me of something I have been aware of for many years - my local authority receives one of the lowest levels of school funding in the country. This is partly due to the 2012 coalition school funding distrubition agreement (the national fair funding formula). The formula is anything but fair and is in place until 2018 at least. The average funding for a primary school place in my region is £4k and for senior schools it is £6k. Average private school fees in the region are double what the state schools receive per pupil so it isn't hard to see that the private schools can offer more to each pupil than most of the state schools.

We do have some very good state schools in the region despite the miserly funds that they receive but in my catchment the schools are not very good despite being all oversubscribed due to the local heavy population. I am glad that my child was able to get a very significant bursary and be able to attend a school where the expectation is that around 90% of GCSE grades in any given year will be at A or A*. A school where he can choose from 5 different languages in year 7 and from more languages from year 9 (pupils study one language in year 7 and can choose to study up to 3 from year 9, but the range to choose from is much wider than at any of the regions state schools). A school where he can choose from over 100 extra curricular activities (he doesn't have any specific talents or interests which require a higher level of training than school can offer). A school where being academically able is something to be proud of rather than something to hide in shame (as was the case in his first school which was a state school).

I don't think that private school is always better but for those with poor state options and the choice and finances to choose a decent private school then it can be worthwhile. Of course anybody spending ££££ on school fees when they have very good state options which can meet their child's needs well is perhaps wasting money, but then most people spend money on things that others see as a total waste.

I think this government is quite keen for state education to produce useful worker bees (who like to spend their free time shopping)

The endless top down pressure to devalue the arts, classics, MFL etc is working well

Spot on. (Although there are pockets of resistance - our first choice secondary for ds3 is one).

Have you read Michael Rosen's Alice series over the last few days (on his facebook page)? Sheer brilliance!

Just reading the OP's question - at what point is it not "worth it"? I think it is impossible to put a monetary value on a private education. You will never be able to quantify which aspects of a child's future (professional/ social/ cultural etc) can be attributed to the fact that you've chosen state or private. May be it makes no difference whatsoever for some and for others it makes a big difference (the arguments in favour of private ed are well known, I'm not getting into that).

But on a broader point as to whether people should sacrifice in order to fund their kids' education I think it's a very personal decision. In poor countries (where prospects are limited) people are willing to put everything they have into their kids' education and it's not questioned, everybody does it (China/ India). Not saving for a pension is really not big deal if that means your child has a shot at going to university. The same is true for many low-income immigrants in the US who put everything they have into their kids' education.

So yes, a very personal decision

It is interesting to think that all the decisions about state education are made by people who don't use it. But somehow trendyleftyegalitarian teachers get the blame!

I would imagine that the many academics doing research/consultancy work, the people working at marker research firms that inform government thinking, the civil servants etc etc are state school users. As are DC and MG.

Decisions about state education are made by people who use it. Cameron, Gove in his time and Blair all for political reasons and because they put country and how this are perceived above their children (a very poor moral choice in my view and I prefer the Osborne and Dianne Abbott approach - that children come first) all use it.

I think the main difference in views on this thread are between those that would start off expecting their DC to be well taught and have a range of opportunities at a state school (even if this then turns out not to be the case and they choose & can afford to use private education) vs those who start of assuming that a private education will of course be better than a state education.

I'm in the first camp, because I've experienced it. If the local state school was significantly failing to meet her needs, either because it was failing all the pupils or because DD had special needs or talents, then of course I would hope to be able to afford to pay for a school that would meet her needs.

I remember one conversation with a friend in London (she was Australian, husband English private education then City) when their DC was less than a year old. She was bemoaning the need to choose which schools to apply to, because how could they tell which would be best while he was still so young. I don't know what my face said, because she added very quickly that the local state schools were terrible. I tried to be sympathetic and condole over the lack of good state schools, and it turned out she hadn't looked into any of them, but it was 'generally known' that the state schools in London were hopeless.

The argument that you couldn't know which school would suit your baby until they were older obviously only applied to private schools...

start off

I can spell, despite going to a state comp

BoboChic I would imagine that the many academics doing research/consultancy work, the people working at marker research firms that inform government thinking, the civil servants etc etc are state school users.

I would imagine these people are also given a brief to work from or at the very least directional imput from the source which commissioned the research in the first instance.

I don't know what schools Gove and Blair's DC's attended but in the case if David Cameron, his DD's state secondary is as outstanding as you could possibly get, not a sink school, if he's choosing it for political reasons I don't think it's much of a sacrifice for his DD at all!

Gove's daughter goes to a London C of E secondary school where I think the eldest Cameron child has just gone too. Blair's older children went to the London Oratory RC school.

I do think Cameron is sacrificing his children for his politics however the fact he announced his retirement for 4 years' time was mooted to be because he wants his son to go to Eton and presumably his daughter to move to a private school at that point before it's too late.

sleepwhenidie I don't know what schools Gove and Blair's DC's attended

www.theguardian.com/education/2014/mar/10/michael-gove-sending-child-state-school-gold-star

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2693729/State-school-Blair-sent-two-sons-ordered-stop-excluding-poor-accused-discrimination.html

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9907427/Nick-Clegg-sends-son-to-same-Catholic-school-used-by-Tony-Blair.html

MumTryingHerBest sleepwhenidie I don't know what schools Blair's DC's attended

It's a shame they didn't attend the same school as their mother:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Heart_Catholic_College

DeoGratis You are just shit stirring now and trying to wind people up. As always.

The idea that the government of the day has much control over the teaching methods used in state schools simply doesn’t stand up. They set the curriculum, and thus the nature of exams and SATS, but that is a fairly crude lever. The people who have the real power over the teaching methods used in schools are primarily non-teacher “educationalists”: academics in institutes of teacher training (ITTs), individual Ofsted inspectors, and senior leadership teams (SLT) in schools.

ITTs for many years have inculcated faddish education methods with little or no proper evidence to back them up, for example Whole Language, VAK learning styles, or extensive use of group-work. Many Ofsted inspectors have thus favoured such methods, and rated down teachers who weren’t using them in observed lessons. Ofsted has recently been trying to put a stop to that, and bring its inspectors under control, but hasn’t yet succeeded. This has led to a culture where many SLT are constantly trying to force faddish or unproven methods on their teachers, using lesson observations and the threat of capability procedures, in the belief that these are “what Ofsted wants to see”. This is one of the reasons for good teachers leaving teaching, and it is a constant theme on teacher blogs.

DeoGratis You do realise you are one of the most identifiable posters on this forum and you continually post identifying information not just about yourself but your adult children. Don't you ever worry that your habit of posting deliberately inflammatory comments and your relentless bragging will effect how people see you in RL.

Do people seriously believe that David Cameron uses state school for his DC because he thinks they're getting a better education than he did?

That he will leave them in the state sector once he stands down?

Seriously?

SheGotAllDaMoves Do people seriously believe that David Cameron uses state school for his DC because he thinks they're getting a better education than he did?

Lets put it another way, do you think he chose the school because it was the nearest to where he lived or convenient for him to do PTA activity, attend concerts and parent consultations?

If ever there was an easy way to accuse DC of hypocrisy, his school choices are it.

He used to have a group of faithful non-political friends whose DC attended the same schools as his DC but they have all gone over to private school now their DC are older and preparing for Eton etc.

Who said anything about convenience or DC's children getting a better education than him - my point was that the school his DD is at is incredible, she isn't exactly hard done by in the state system! Not sure what his friends' DC's schools have to do with anything .

Good post Kesstrel. It's a perfect description of my DC's primary school.

Posters were getting rather het up by the observation that DC uses state school for political expediency and that they won't see his ass for dust when he steps down.

I was surprised. That didn't seem a remotely controversial comment.

So I was just asking what people thought were his actual motivations.