At what point is going private NOT worth it?

[lexlees]

I was chatting to a friend recently and we got chatting about schools. Their only daughter goes to a top private school and it is a real financial strain on them. They reckon they spend 40% of their net family income on school fees and extras. All her wages go towards the school fees and even then only covers 2/3 of it - the remaining third comes from her husband's salary.

From my perspective I don't see how it is worth it. She maintained that it is not unusual. They just want their child to have 'every advantage' because both she and her husband went private.

Their girl is bright but didn't qualify for any bursary or scholarship and failed to get into the selective state school (they did try all three). Although the girl was top of her class in her state primary, she now feels so much pressure because she hasn't gotten an 'A' in anything yet. She is now no longer the bright one and it took two terms to make friends. I'd love to say she is a lovely girl, but honestly, she is an ungrateful and mean brat (she used to beat up/be cruel to my ds every time they were alone - then lie about it - hence I don't bring my ds anymore to their house).

They are putting minimal money into pensions and have only 'one term's worth' of savings. They haven't had a holiday for two to three years, never eat out and hardly buy stuff (except for stuff for their daughter - so she doesn't feel 'left out' at school) as they have a mortgage as well. They also don't have parental financial support or expect much of any inheritance either. I feel like my friend has changed into some penny pinching miser, always working out how to save pennies and she is just worn out from a low paid job!

It got me wondering if other people are just making ends meet to send a child or children private. Is she correct that it is normal? At what point does it become NOT worth it.

" Yes, but since kids spend roughly 6 or 7 hours a day in school I expect them to learn all the things we want them to learn THERE, and not after school in their free time while doing all sorts of 'soft' stuff as a part of the curriculum at school". But the only reason private schools can do this is because they have more time and more money. My ds does several of the activities that he would do in school if he was in private school- he does them outside school and still is often home before his private school friends....

For us it would stop being worth it if we really couldn't afford it, if dd wasn't getting a tailor made education, if she stopped receiving the support she has.
If the school was no longer a perfect fit.

As I mentioned in my earlier post my DCs comp school is really close. It's about a five minute walk. It was a huge plus for them and environmental sensible and meant I never did a school run

It sounds like my DB who always goes on that he is manager in charge of a couple of others who had privileged educations. Always laments 'didn't do them much good did it'

Always thought he must have a bit of an inferiority type issue going on.

Devilish - "Surely most A*s are achieved by individual hard work..." Agree that individual hard work is necessary in most cases; however, you also need to have access to the material required to be learned, and an understanding of the marking scheme/what is expected. So for chemistry, for example, you can buy a GCSE revision guide that will basically give you everything you need to know, so if the teaching is poor or the classroom too disrupted for learning, an individual student can make up for it (although a disadvantaged child would still need to know such a book is available, and have the time and space to study it).

But for English, on the other hand, our school does WJEC and there just isn't an up to date, good quality, detailed explanation of how to approach the exams in terms of what the markers are looking for. And if you don't give the markers what they are looking for, you won't get an A, however erudite your answers may be! In that situation, students are very much dependent on the quality of the teaching. In the weeks prior to the exam, my daughter's mixed ability Year 11 class were still doing things like sitting under their desks to imagine what it would feel like to be a prisoner; and on one occasion the teacher suggested they could, for a particular exercise, do a mime, or a drawing, or even "write boring old paragraphs" if they preferred. (She missed the A by a few marks. I can't help but feel that if the teaching had been focussed on higher achievers as much as it was on C grades, she would have had a better chance.)

Ah yes true kesstrel. My children have the advantage of a mother who taught in a tutorial college so specialises in high stakes pointless exams!

There's a broader issue here as well - education vs teaching to pass exams. I suspect we all have our own individual definition of what 'education' is. I always say the most useful thing I learned at school was to navigate & survive on dartmoor in thick fog/dreadful weather. I do genuinely believe that - but partly because at that time I would have struggled to access that particular education outside school (not now - last year I did my own individual refresher course & added in navigating at night). Anyway I suspect that there are many who do not see standing thigh deep in a bog on dartmoor as education. How we individually define education & how expect to access that may alter our own views of private vs state.

For ds2 (who alas has so far avoided the tramping across dartmoor opportunities on offer at his state school) - the most important part of his 'education' takes place outside school (given his current future aims) - he goes to school to collect exams (so the exam factory approach of his school may not matter too much). I can see ds3 spending a lot of years in academia & for him the how of teaching is as important as results. I rather suspect the exam factory approach would not be ideal for him. Luckily we have a pretty good choice of state school options in our city.

Bertrand, that's great, so in your case it works perfectly fine. I think it would depend on the subject a child would do in after school hours, too. It's harder to stay motivated, I guess, to do French for years after school on your own (with a tutor) then a dance class with a couple of friends... And I mention French because our catchment school only offers Spanish as a MFL, and I really would like my kids to learn French and possibly German! Yes, it's probably to do with funding, but also with priorities: this school at the same time does teach dance as part of the curriculum.
In short: personally I'd prefer if kids can do languages IN school and dance AFTER school...

Re Latin/Greek - classics (sorry greats ) is probably one of the easier courses to get into at Oxford/Cambridge if that sort of thing is important to you. Ds3 wants to study latin because he is fascinated by the Romans - am happy to oblige for as long as he's interested.

It's performing arts that ds2 accesses for hours outside school. The advantage is that the standard he is accessing is higher than anything that would be available in school. Being forced to do that only in school would be a hindrance for him. I'm still pleased he can do music & drama at school though - eveb though he has complained to me about sending him to the ONLY school that doesn't offer dance.

Ds3 is sporty. He does a few slightly obscure sports outside school where the club is run by Olympic coaches (he's not taking part at a very high level - but there's the opportunity to access very high standards of coaching for those who need it). Having all extra curricular activities onsite can be an advantage or a hindrance depending on the child. Ds2 would definitely miss out if he couldn't access the performing arts stuff he does in the evenings.

Each child will take different things from school. One of mine said his DofE was the worst experience of his life - but at least now he knows that is not for him. 3 of them have/had music scholarships so I'm sure some of the musical stuff was worth paying for. Others would probably say their friends in teenage years was one of the most important elements of school. Many of those things you get in private and state schools. Many of us will have one or two particular teachers which helped make our education particularly special.

What I like at the private schools is that the children get exposure to a huge lot of potential hobbies they will adore for life even if just one of those if the thing they pick upon. You can of course get those things in private and state sectors. I never know why we bother to argue these points - those of us women who earn enough to pay school fees and pay them are happy with our choices and those only using private schools are happy too so why can't we all go away happy bunnies?

Unfortunately, I think there are a lot of unhappy bunnies. Lots and lots of children don't get the education they deserve.

Many people don't have a choice about where their DC go to school let alone the luxury of deciding between private or state.

devil don't dismiss the standard of in school performing arts.

DD had only ever done drama at school when she was asked to audition for a part in a west end show. And she got it.

Sometimes the standard is really very high.

We'll done bobo DS.

In only a few weeks he has discovered where everyone on his course went to school, what grade they got at A level and their actual level in maths ( very poor - every one if them ).

No doubt he ( like his big brother ) will 'win all the prizes'

I'm not dismissing the standard of school shows - they can be of a high standard, but if you have to do everything in school then you do limit yourself to whatever your school happens to be good at & the interests of particukar teachers. Also depends on the age. Ds2 has been in a few West End tours with not a great deal of training, but now in his teens he needs that more extensive, regular training - particularly in dance tbh (which isn't run in any form at his school). He's also had the opportunity to join various companies that he just wouldn't have been able to do if everything had to be done through school. I'm not saying one is better than the other - just that the assumption that private schools are always going to be better because they have many more extra curricular activities in school isn't necessarily true. It depends on the child.

There are a lot of students at university who are very vocal about their (to them) illustrious provenance, SheGot. Not hard to know where they come from not what A-level grades they got, since it's the standard offer on a competitive course and they all posted all that info on Facebook in August. You are under an illusion if you think any stealth work is involved - it's all public knowledge these days

Fair dos devil .

We don't do dancing etc in Casa SheGot. Just drama.

And school were pretty good. Well , bloody good I think given the opportunity DD got ( she probably would not have been seen and asked to audition had she not been at a school where someone in the know was in the audience IYSWIM).

Ds2 refused to dance for years, but was blown away by the adult tap dancing in the show he was in a year ago & came straight off that into loads of dance classes & various companies. He is playing catch up with dance...

It does tend to be a lot of right place at right time in this game. Ds2 wouldn't have got the part he had this time last year (which is biggest one he had) if it had been cast this year as his voice is dropping & he can no longer reach the high notes on one of his main solos. Now he's at the un-castable age he's been really looking at what is available for teens locally & a lot of it is really, really high quality & there's loads of choice (too much - more than he can do). I suppose I'm saying you don't have to pay private school fees to access high quality extra curricular activities. One of his favourite things he does at the moment is a weekly 3 hours after school with a male dance company - all completly free & he's dancing with professional dancers.

Having said all that ds3's first choice (state) school places a lot of emphasis on extra curricular activities, so will see what they offer. He likes trying lots of different things, so being able to access that in school will be ideal for him.

Some ECs sit better within the context of school and some sit better outside it. The particular logistics of drama sit very well within school, as do team sports, orchestras and debating.

DD's serious but non-vocational dance school (ballet, tap, modern theatre) draws from pretty much all types of local school - comprehensive, grammar, private.

It's harder for the private school pupils, because they have so much 'in school extra curricular' - both timetabled sport etc and after-school stuff - it's hard for them to access the local serious dance schools for enough hours to achieve a high standard. Their in-school dance provision is not of the same level at all (I'm thinking of 12/13/14 year olds working at Grade 6 / Vocational exam level). The only private school educated pupil there I can think of who is keeping up with her state educated peers does so by learning only a single genre of dance, and completely bypassing all group dance opportunities.

And DS's main sport - football, which he played at local league club academy level for a while, so he's quite good - isn't taught in the local private schools at all.

Apologies, the point I am making is that 'great extra-curricular opportunities', frequently cited as reasons for going private, are only 'great' if they match a child's interests / aptitudes.

I agree that it can be easier buying 'the package holiday' rather than the 'DIY' version of matching up school + extracurricular opportunities for yourself, and transport between school and extracurricular providers is a pain. But the DIY alternative, tailored to your child, is sometimes very much better, in terms of optimising the quality and 'fit' of each part, and also flexibility, IYSWIM?

That's what I was trying to say teacherwith2kids.

For ds3 (currently) in-school stuff is great, as he likes trying a range of activities and he enjoys trying all sorts of new things. He hasn't really found passion yet.

But ds2 knows what he wants to do, knows what he needs to have a chance of achieving that, knows how he wants to spend his free time and very much has to access that outside school (and that would be the case if he happened to be in a private school now as well).

"And school were pretty good. Well , bloody good I think given the opportunity DD got ( she probably would not have been seen and asked to audition had she not been at a school where someone in the know was in the audience IYSWIM)."

Fantastic for your dd. Maybe a bit less fantastic, possibly, for other children equally talented who didn't get that opportunity? As I keep, tediously, saying "privilege attracts privilege". Yes of course there is a current crop of young actors from Eton and Harrow- they both have a professional theatre director on the staff, and a theatre all ready and waiting just in case any of the boys feel like putting on a play.

I think it largely depends on the child's stamina and interests. My DD1 does all the private schools' packaged activities (hockey, netball, rounders, drama, swimming, etc) at school but is also grade 4 in a number of instruments and tap/ballet/modern..at 10.

My son in the same school doesn't do anything out of school because he is a quiet academic type and prefers sitting down with a book most of the time!! (was the same when he was at his state school, one of the reasons we moved him).

True Bertrand - if we could afford Eton we'd be helping ds2 enormously in his favoured career choice www.theguardian.com/stage/2014/sep/13/judi-dench-actors-held-back-by-wealth-divide-drama-school

Although to be fair the kid-theatre (including, maybe even especially West End) stuff is very egalitarian. The main children's casting directors don't care about background, training (or lack of) & the main roles are all pretty much open auditions advertised widely on websites. They do genuinely cast anyone if they're right for the role. It's in film & adult performing arts it pays to be connected.

I still believe that ds2 gains something - more overall - by going to the local state school & by not boarding etc. It's back to what you count as education & what skills/values are important to you/your family.

Yes, each family differs so just pick what suits you. Not all children in private schools do a lot of activities - nor should they. I always think time alone to think (one resaon I prefer day to boarding schools) for some children ias as important as activities. That contemplation, decisions about who you are, silence, boredom in a way can be good too.Some of my children have been huge joiners of activities and some not - it is just a personality thing.

Buying the luxury holiday with lots of good activities to choose from rather than something more basic if we keep with our holiday analogy does work for some parents and children. I think it has given my children choices and hobbies. Nor do I agree that only state school pupils win prizes at university. I won university prizes in law. I was top of my year. I went to a private school. My daughter found the state school pupils worse at group discussions or tutorials or whatever they were called, almost universally than the private school pupils. Don't assume paying private school fees mean your children will fail at univesrity, get worse results and do badly in life.

However if you don't want to pay or can't pay if you pick state schools well those are good too. We can all be relatively happy bunnies and many many parents put children first and move for good schools. You don't have to stay in your town. Just as many women move countries and within the UK hundreds of miles for good jobs (and a few women to follow useless men - more fool them).