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Appeal to Superselective, prh47bridge or anyone with knowledge?

197 replies

pickledsiblings · 24/04/2015 10:40

My DS sat for a Superselective GS in Sept and his results weren't stellar (although he did 'pass', doing equally well in English and maths on the papers). I therefore didn't apply for a place for him - he is at a middle school and can stay there for another year so I didn't need to apply for another school place.

On offer day (2 March) I was able to see that his result wasn't as 'bad' as I first thought based on the other results that were getting offers so I went ahead and made a late application. It was my intention to leave him on the waiting list for the coming year.

However, the more I have thought about things the more I realise that we may have a case for an appeal. There are 2 main issues:

  1. DS changed school at the end of Y4 as that is the system here. There is evidence to show that progress is hampered during school transition. DS made v. little progress in Y5 but is now flying. Most other DC sitting the 11+ will not have experienced transition.

  2. DS's school was in a state of turmoil last year as they didn't know what their fate would be as part of the school organisation review. Staff morale was at an all time low as it was uncertain whether or not they would remain part of an all though system and keep their jobs or move to a 2 tier system and lose them. This was only sorted out at the end of the school year last year.

I believe that both these factors played a part in DS not achieving his potential in the 11+ test.

Does anyone have any advice, success stories or otherwise to share? I'd love to hear your opinions. Am I mad to even consider appealing on these grounds?

Thank you.

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pickledsiblings · 03/05/2015 13:17

Thanks teacher and Essexmum*.

4 marks does represent rather a lot of DC, that's for sure.

DS scored better in the English paper than the maths. DS finishes the level 3-5 SATs papers with plenty of time so I wouldn't have thought that would be an issue. Maybe you are right though, he might find the pace of working at the GS too fast.

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pickledsiblings · 03/05/2015 13:24

Thanks so much for checking the paper by the way Essexmum. I'm wondering whether or not to forego the appeal and try again for year 8 entry on the paper they set. There will be science questions on it which will be right up DS's street. Evidence of level 5a in science wouldn't hold much weight on appeal then, no?

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teddygirlonce · 03/05/2015 13:33

There are however many, many children who are 'very academic' who don't get into grammar schools...including all the others on the waiting list for your preferred option grammar school.

And choosing schools based on how academic they are suggests 'education tourism' rather than a commitment to a specific school.

And with many grammar schools having an increasingly culturally mixed intake (particularly within the M25) not sure the 'Christian values' argument would work, particularly as you've already said your son would prefer not to be educated in an RC school!'

pickledsiblings · 03/05/2015 13:53

So does anyone know if they analyse the papers then when you go for an appeal. I remember that there were some code type questions that took him a little time on the practise paper. Perhaps he screwed up those.

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Essexmum69 · 03/05/2015 13:54

Very few in year places occur. No one new joined in DS cohort until year 9. I have heard of an occasional pupil leaving due to the travelling being too much, but this is generally in the first term and so would be replaced via the waiting list.
Also please bear in mind that there is a new Headteacher in September, so that could lead to changes with policy, admissions, curriculum etc.

pickledsiblings · 03/05/2015 14:08

I read about the new Head, he's a Physicist.

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YonicScrewdriver · 03/05/2015 14:14

I don't know if they would analyse the papers but I'd've thought it unlikely as they won't necessarily be qualified examiners?

prh47bridge · 03/05/2015 14:20

The appeal panel will not analyse the papers.

pickledsiblings · 03/05/2015 14:32

Thanks for that Yonic and prh47bridge.

I've just reread the Head's info about DS and his current ability is top 5% in science but only just making it into the top 10% in English and maths. Remember that is of a cohort in excess of 100 Y6 pupils.

His 11+ score saw him do better in English (7 marks over the mean) but he was only just on the mean for the maths.

He's not of the right ability for a superselective is he?

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pickledsiblings · 03/05/2015 14:42

For anyone who is interested in the statistics of it all (you might be interested in this Essexmum, here's some more data:

2014 (2015 entry)
Mean Standard Deviation

English 33.174 8.665
Maths 38.349 10.709

If anyone can see anything in that that may help my case (doubtful) please shout.

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YonicScrewdriver · 03/05/2015 14:50

OP, he may or may not have the ability - it's quite possible he has. But unfortunately there are not enough places for all that would have the ability and nothing about what you've posted so far makes me think he had an extraordinarily bad day on the test (e.g. recent hospitalisation or bereavement).

The panel may agree that your son has the ability/potential but still not be able to admit as so many other candidates would also have the same kind of argument.

pickledsiblings · 03/05/2015 15:41

Do those standard deviations say that the English results are more 'reliable' than the maths ones?

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teacherwith2kids · 03/05/2015 15:43

It seems to me that, in many ways, we think about the 11+ in the wrong way.

It isn't an infallible measure of ability - although very low ability children will get lower scores than very high ability pupils, it isn't particularly good at genuinely ranking pupils in between. On another day, or with a different year's paperrs, the children admitted might be very different. It is also not independent of other variables - coaching, schooling, cultural norms - so what it produces is a result that is an amalgam of all of these.

It doesn't measure who would benefit, or be able to cope with, a 'grammar school' education, whatever that might be. It is not that in Kent 25% of pupils can copen with this type of education, whereas in a superselective area only 1% would be. I suspect that any child in the top 10% or so of ability, with supportive parents and a good work ethic, could cope perfectly well with a superselective grammar school environment.

What it is designed to do is provide a simple to mark and somewhat objective way of RATIONING a scarce resource - a limited number of places, in this case. It does this in a transparent way, and is adequately good at it - it separates from thousands of applicants a subset who are, with a few outlying exceptions, a decent fit for the school. That is all it NEEDS to do, from the school's point of view.

So arguments based around your child's ability are not really the point - yes, other children of that ability (measured in other ways, or on other days) and lower, will have been accepted by the school. Many others of equal and higher ability will not have been accepted. Many, many children who took the test, and many who didn't, could cope with, may perhaps even do slightly better than they otherwise might in, a grammar school environment. But your son, on this occasion, did not meet the rationing criteria.

pickledsiblings · 03/05/2015 15:50

That is very well reasoned teacherwith2kids and makes sense to me. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

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Essexmum69 · 03/05/2015 16:14

The only thing I can read from the stats is that the Maths paper was generally found easier than the English. Presuming these are the County wide stats, rather than just those of applicants for the school you are interested in, then the point to bear in mind is the "southend affect". The catchment area and number of grammar schools in Southend LEA makes it easier to get a grammar place there than in the other Essex schools. Since the CSSE exam is opt in rather than opt out, more middle ability children tend to sit the exam in southend (thus lowering the mean mark) than in north essex where it is accepted that a very high score would be required. Consequently it is thought that the spread of scores is not even across the county. You would need both scores well above the mean to stand a chance of a superselective place.
His English score is good, you need to make a case as to why he underperformed so much in Maths if you do not consider this score representative of his ability. (There was no code style questions this year either, it was an unusual paper, I think you need to get hold of a copy, it is copywrited so I cannot help, you need to contact the CSSE). For reference I gave this paper to my year 5 over easter, (I do not consider him to be superselective ability we are preparing for Ipswich school), he scored 51.

pickledsiblings · 03/05/2015 16:30

For reference I gave this paper to my year 5 over easter, (I do not consider him to be superselective ability we are preparing for Ipswich school), he scored 51.

That his a very high score and would most definitely earn your DS a place if he had an English one of 36.

Why don't you consider him to be of superselective ability?

Mind you, I can't fault your choice of alternative school.

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pickledsiblings · 03/05/2015 16:30

Should have said that yes, these are the county wide stats.

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Charis1 · 03/05/2015 16:32

The statistics basically mean one third of candidates were between 33.174 and 41.839 in English, and 15% of candidates were above that.

In maths roughly one third of candidates were between 33.349 and 44.058, and 15% were above that.

So if the super-selective takes the top 10%? is that what you said? Then over 5% of the population is between your son and the acceptance mark in English, and 38% in maths.

What is your next closest grammar school?

Essexmum69 · 03/05/2015 16:42

Why don't you consider him to be of superselective ability?
His written English is not as good as his Maths, he is not where his brother was at the same age (and he scraped in), he is basicly lazy and has little self motivation.

The standard deviations mean, I think, that the range of English scores was smaller than the range of Maths scores.

pickledsiblings · 03/05/2015 16:52

This year Charis1 11.5% of those that sat the 11+ got places at a superselective.

There isn't another GS that we could realistically get to. We are in W. Suffolk.

Essexmum have you considered that your DS2 may be lazy and lacking in motivation because he is under stimulated at school. My DS is much more focussed now that he is doing L6 work. That is one of the main reasons why we want him to go to the GS.

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pickledsiblings · 03/05/2015 16:55

Essexmum, he would only need to get 36/60 in the English to get a place (albeit the last one) so I wouldn't necessarily rule it out.

I would be so pleased if something good came out of this thread, even if it's not for me :)

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Charis1 · 03/05/2015 16:59

it doesn't change my figures pickledsiblings, because I rounded down quite a lot. How many children took the 11+?

pickledsiblings · 03/05/2015 16:59

However Essexmum, if money isn't an issue I can definitely recommend the school you have in mind for him. Lots of challenge there and a good pace plus great extra currics.

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pickledsiblings · 03/05/2015 17:02

4159 sat it Charis1. 50:50 boys:girls. 240 superselective boys' places.

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Charis1 · 03/05/2015 17:08

so roughly 104 boys ahead of him in English, without making the entry thresh hold, and 790 in maths.

Not a precise calculation just a rough measure.