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Steiner Schools

146 replies

corelegacyfitness · 27/03/2015 08:01

What are your thoughts on Stenier Educations?

OP posts:
YouFargingIceHole · 27/03/2015 08:20

Meh. I know two people who did steiner all the way through and feel cheated that it didn't really prepare them for the real world of university and work. Both have struggled to have any sort of career.
A friend put his son in to primary school but took him out after a year because he thought the other kids were too privileged and he wanted his son to mix with a wider variety of people from other cultures and classes.
My friend, who is an artist, got a job teaching at a steiner school, with no teaching qualifications whatsoever. There were other teachers that did not have teaching degrees there.
I personally wouldn't touch steiner education with a barge pole... and I haven't even gotten started on the core beliefs!

MMmomKK · 27/03/2015 11:18

There has been many heated discussions mumsnet, and elsewhere on Internet. If even half of the things people mention about it are true, I would be very very careful before even considering it.

roguedad · 27/03/2015 18:25

Take a look at this recent BBC discussion

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-28646118

and the quackometer piece here:

www.quackometer.net/blog/2012/11/what-every-parent-should-know-about-steiner-waldorf-schools.html

If you are looking for weird education, it's up there with with Accelerated Christian Doo-dah. There is no scenario under which I would submit my kids to this rubbish.

AliceAnneB · 28/03/2015 22:10

I think it depends on the school (doesn't it always!) and at what age. The 3-6 age group seem to do well and all the kids we know have done very well after moving on to other education both private and state. I really wouldn't consider past 6 though.

Luna9 · 01/04/2015 23:26

It is good for part of the primary for some kids who don't settle in other schools but would move before ending primary or at least for secondary school; I know a mum whose child was struggling and unhappy in other school which follow the UK system; she moved her to a stainer school for primary, and went for independent in secondary; her child won a bursary in a good independent secondary and is thriving

DragonRojo · 03/04/2015 11:21

I recently interviewed someone for a temping job who had always studied at a Steiner school. I have never come across such a badly prepared candidate. Of course this is just anecdotal but, in her case, her educators had definitely failed her. I felt sad for her.

mathanxiety · 03/04/2015 21:45

Steiner ed is pretty much a cult with a quasi religious set of beliefs that are a hodge podge of reincarnation, myth, and Christian elements. They have some very unscientific beliefs about SN children and people with disabilities, and tend not to adders bullying as it is considered to be part of the process of incarnation, which is what the schools are all about, with the curriculum designed to facilitate that and not the mere reading, writing, arithmetic, social studies, etc that ordinary schools focus on.

Siri123 · 06/04/2015 11:37

I am a parent who got involved with running Greenwich Steiner School a few years ago when it was just starting up. Its most recent inspection report (May 2014) describes "outstanding teaching" with "enthusiastic learning and high standards". The children it says are "confident, articulate young people with high self-esteem who value both their own uniqueness and that if others". The curriculum "recognised the unique individuality of each child" and "together with good teaching, enables pupils of all ages to make good progress at each stage of their development". When Steiner education is delivered well it provides an exceptional education but like all schools there will be mistakes and parents need to make a judgement about how well a school is run as with any school. Greenwich is not perfect as no school is but I see so much understanding and care invested in each child and extraordinary efforts to help every child flourish. My children are now 15 and have moved on to a highly academic state school and are in the top two sets and expected to get good GCSE results across the board. They are also praised constantly for their emotional and social maturity. Their peer group are the same. I had my doubts as my children went through the school. I am a lawyer and had a very traditional academic education but looking at my children now and their peers I could not be happier. I have never witnessed anything approaching a cult and I see less racism than you would find in other schools because the underlying principles are about welcoming everyone, allowing them to be themselves and providing support rather judgement.

Siri123 · 06/04/2015 13:47

Also in answer to above comments bullying is always tackled, approached imaginatively and never considered a result of karma. The school encourages children to learn how to manage negative social dynamics themselves because that will prepare them for life but always with the careful guidance of adults. With specific learning difficulties/SEN the school uses Steiner and mainstream approaches, drawing on multi-disciplinary professionals to gain insight on each child and find effective solutions.

mathanxiety · 06/04/2015 15:28

Au contraire, bullying is always seen as part of the karmic process. Karma and reincarnation are fundamental to Steiner education. Every single detail of the curriculum, the pedagogy, and the physical environment within the schools, as well as the approach taken by teachers to every single problem that crops up is guided by the idea that children are in the process of karmic incarnation.

If by treating bullying 'imaginatively' you mean treating it as part of the process of incarnation, then you have been honest. If not, then you have used a word that can mean a multitude of different things to different people in order to obfuscate.

Could you describe exactly what you mean by 'Steiner approaches' to learning difficulties/SEN? Are there 'multi disciplinary professionals' among the ranks of Steiner teachers dealing with SEN and if so what exactly are their qualifications?

Also, in light of your comments on alleged child centredness, could you tell us everything you know of anthroposophy?

NoPsipsinaChocolateOrange · 06/04/2015 15:36

I don't know tbh. Always thought it sounded idyllic (compared to hairy state schools round here anyway) and have known some very sound, nice, wise people who went there..

So we went to look round and I couldn't handle it. From the weirdness about children's teeth dictating what lessons they did to the very hostile maths teacher who was yelling at the class in front of a group of prospective parents, it was all too much for me.

It was also very expensive.

Siri123 · 07/04/2015 07:37

You don't say what school. Steiner schools are independent of each other linked through a membership organisation. They are not all the same.

What is sure is that they are usually cheaper than other independent schools because the ethos is to be as inclusive as possible. But there are now 4 Steiner academies where you don't have to pay - Frome, Hereford, Exeter and Bristol. Exeter and Bristol are too new to have been inspected but the other two have had good inspection reports.

Unescorted · 07/04/2015 08:00

I went to a Steiner school for both primary and secondary. As said up thread it depends on the school. Ours had no religious teaching at all as it was seen as a family choice. Racial diversity was celebrated. I don't recognise the quasi cult, racisit, bullying environment others are describing - it wouldn't have been tolerated in our school.

I agree some people did not thrive in the unstructured enviroment, but others did really well. I found it a huge asset at university to be able to time manage myself and know how to learn. Now I am in an environment where we have to learn new policies and understand the implications as they are launched it is an invaluable skill.

It is not the type of place to send your kid if you are hung up on spelling and facts and figures based education or worried about attainment targets. The first exams I did were my A levels, which were disappointing, but I went on to get a 1st and a PhD.

Siri123 · 07/04/2015 08:23

Mathanxiety I can only speak for Greenwich where I am responsible as a non- teacher for our approach to bullying. As a children's rights lawyer before having children I can assure you we never put bullying down to karma. Even the tinniest inkling of bullying is reported to the Safeguarding team who work with the teachers involved and parents. This is in line with guidance from the DoE and good practice inspected and praised by inspectors. Usually there is a reason for 'bullying' and we look to get to that underlying reason and help solve it.

As regards SEN the multidisciplinary team will be external to the school as would be the case in any mainstream school - we consult with Educational Psychologists, Occupational Therapists, Specialist Autistic teachers from Royal Greenwich and other external organisations. We also use the CAF form to refer to GPs, CAMHS etc. The traditional Steiner approach to SEN that I refer to consists more of movement based practice to help co-ordinate and balance the body and does not in any way refer to karma which I think may have been what you were thinking. The karmic approach to SEN is old fashioned, blinkered and has no place in a modern Steiner school. What is good in the legacy of that is the approach where teachers very much focus on and celebrate what the child can do rather than at what they cannot do.

Anthroposophy is only relevant in our school in relation to where it intersects with education which is mainly that children are taught in a way and at a time suits their development - through immitation in the early years, through imagination from around 6 to 11/12/13 and then through the intellect from then on. The stuff around anthroposophy you refer to - karma etc is a personal issue for teachers and parents - it would be the same if a teacher was Buddist or Catholic or Jewish. I am not an anthroposophist and neither are most of the teachers in our school but they draw on the educational aspects where they work and many do, to create a well rounded kind and caring education system. Rudolf Steiner was not a guru. The danger of any philosophy is when it leads people without question. I can tell you that does not happen in our school. Come and see it.

favouritewasteoftime · 07/04/2015 08:30

I don't have direct experience of Steiner schools but their approach, I think, is interesting. I can see that giving a child a completely different experience like this might give them an edge in a competitive world.

Unescorted · 07/04/2015 08:45

Favourite yes it can give an edge, but equally it can send them out unprepared. It depends on the child, school and parents as everybody is responsible for the education. In a Steiner environment everything is seen as an oportunity to learn. If those oprotunities aren't recognised by the child, parent or teachers then it doesn't work so well. I had a couple of classmates who saw it as a way to do nothing - they are still lazy feckers.

My kids hate it when they ask me a question and I don't give them an answer or it a qualified answer. Eg Them: Do I need a jumper to go out? Me: "Why don't you go outside and check. It might also be wise to look at the forecast in case it is going to rain" or less helpfully "I don't know"

favouritewasteoftime · 07/04/2015 09:07

Unescorted Yes, absolutely, I suppose the success of any schooling depends more or less on what the child and parents put into it.

Personally, despite all that I find attractive about the Steiner ethos and curriculum, I think I would have to guard against my own expectations of school and exam achievements undermining the experience for any child of mine.

onadifferentplanet · 07/04/2015 09:28

My son attends a Steiner upper school where he is doing exceedingly well. We are not lentil weaving hippies in fact my other children attended very academic independent schools. It's not for everyone and I heard all sorts before he started. I went with him to look for myself and its was the perfect fit for him. I would highly recommend you look for yourself rather than take the word of the anti brigade.

ShootPeppaPig · 07/04/2015 17:09

Another one who recommends a look round. The one already mentioned upthread is the only one Iv any experience of but I didn't find all the wierd stuff the anti brigade mentions when we looked at it. Haven't used it only the toddler group so far but I just enjoyed that it seemed more gentle and less in your face than some other education settings

mathanxiety · 07/04/2015 20:19

Steiner schools are not independent of each other any more than Catholic schools are, and they do not all have different approaches to bullying or any other issue that comes up, depending on the character of the governing board, etc..

Steiner schools all have as their fundamental, core identity the bedrock of anthrosophy, which involves belief in incarnation and the karmic process. This informs every single element present in every single Steiner school, and every approach to every issue that arises. Rudolph Steiner was in fact a guru, and his teaching remains central to everything that is done in Steiner schools and every element of the environment.

There is no religious teaching per se but every element is informed by the religion of anthrosophy. The environment is unstructured as Unescorted reports, and not just when it comes to time management. Bullying when it comes up is left to the students to 'resolve' amongst themselves as they incarnate. If a student doesn't encounter bullying it is purely down to luck. Attainment targets are not a feature of Steiner schools because their primary aim is not academic but spiritual - the development of the soul. Academic aims and those who are concerned with them are rather looked down upon, as the phrase 'hung up on spelling and facts and figures' illustrates. Rudolph Steiner was not interested in empirical science, but in what he called 'spiritual science', which he considered to be a higher plane of knowledge, and necessary for the central process of incarnation and spiritual development. That belief informs the curriculum. It also informs the curriculum as it relates to children with SE, who are held to have somehow wished for their SN in a former life. Steiner methods seek to ensure they have a 'higher' level of existence in future lives.

In the words of Rudolph Steiner himself, Anthroposophy is “spiritual advancement through karma and reincarnation, supplemented by the access to esoteric knowledge available to a privileged few.” So perhaps it is not surprising that even someone who is a governor of a Steiner school would be out of the loop. Steiner education tends to hide much of what is really significant about it, what makes it truly radically different from all other educational philosophies (Montessori for instance), from the public. It hides behind phrases such as 'individual child's development' that mean all things to all people, and brochures and tours are designed to allow parents to project whatever wishes they have for their child onto the school they visit. The Anthroposophical foundation is kept tucked away.

Eurhythmy (what Siri calls 'movement based practice to help co-ordinate and balance the body') is innately connected to the notion of karma, and the process of incarnation. It is used in Anthroposophic medicine for therapeutic purposes therapeutic in the sense of being an aid to spiritual development and in schools for the same purpose. In schools, eurhythmy is used to help move students through the different phases of their spiritual incarnation and to deal with issues of development such as rebelliousness towards authority. In Steiner schools, the first Anthrosophical stage that is incarnated is the etheric, at about age seven, when milk teeth are shed and the adult teeth appear -- this is the signal to begin teaching reading. This is followed at age fourteen with the onset of puberty by the appearance of the astral body. At this point reasoning is introduced into the curriculum. At about age 21 the divine selfhood incarnates.

Siri's choice of words is interesting because co-ordinating and balancing of the body is sort of like saying eurhythmy seeks to improve balance and co-ordination, which could just as easily be achieved by ballet or gymnastics after all. But eurhythmy is a specifically designed 'practice' requiring specially trainer practitioners, and it has a spiritual end. What is being co-ordinated and balanced is actually spiritual elements in the body, which according to Anthroposophy is really only a vessel for spirits. Eurhythmy facilitates the spiritual midwifery that Steiner schools seek to accomplish.

And now we see the usual appearance of the phrase 'the anti brigade' which is par for the course for all threads on Steiner education. People who ask questions are not in fact welcome on Steiner threads; despite what Siri says 'The danger of any philosophy is when it leads people without question,' questioning of Steiner education is not welcome by those enmeshed in it.

Zinxie · 07/04/2015 20:32

Have there been any informed discussions of steiners ideas by esoteric teachers or enlightened beings, that are available to the public?

I don't see informed commentary on what he presented, it seems to stand alone, either 'believed' or rejected, but not seriously analysed. Am I simply unaware of the generation of 'post - steinerians' that work with what he gave and explicate it?

Is there an academic esoteric study of Steiner by a teacher that has achieved themselves spiritually? Has steiners work spawned spiritually evolved commentaries and high level teachers?

Sorry if this is slightly off topic. I've often wondered this question and this seems a good place to ask it.

I'm aware that there are post jungians and post Freudians and commentaries on krishnamurti and gurdjieff and texts galore on most gurus and their teachings.

fairgame · 07/04/2015 20:42

There is a Steiner special school near me and DS attended a few sessions for an assessment. It's very different to conventional education but i can see how it would work for some children who cannot cope with a conventional education. I didn't have any concerns about their approach with SN and my bullshit radar is usually pretty finely tuned. The only reason i decided not to send DS was because i felt it was a bit too unstructured for him. I do know a parent who has sent her child there after he got permanently excluded from another special school and she is happy with the school and her son is doing well.

TheBoov · 07/04/2015 20:49

As a new mum I'd been taken in by the nice stuff they like to show newcomers like following seasons; all the wooden toys; cooking and crafting together and story time.
Fortunately for my children, Steiner toddler group and kindergarten gave me enough time to discover what a load of dangerous nonsense dressed up as fairies Anthroposophy is.
The paintings that all had to look the same; the fear of corners; the fear of black; the horrible horrible demonisation of disabilities as karma; the exclusivity; the assumption of a 'right' way to live and the denigrating of those who don't meet that ideal; the deliberate ignorance of science just for a start.
Nasty, small minded, claptrap. AVOID.

basildonbond · 07/04/2015 21:12

Ds1 had two terms in a Steiner school when he was reception age - we'd just moved back to the UK and it was the only school with space...

It was the most awful experience, one which I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Ds has a neurological condition which at that time was a lot more noticeable than it is now. We were a bit puzzled that they didn't seem very interested in finding out more but assumed that acceptance was part of the school's ethos.

There were several incidents during his mercifully brief time there which he started to worry us. One day he came home with a nasty cut on his head. He told me he'd been climbing unsupervised on the rocking horse when one of the other children had pushed him off. When I asked about this the next day I was told that it was his 'karma' and that it wasn't the teachers' job to intervene and that he would now know better in the future. He was 4...

But the final straw was when his so-called teacher called me in for a meeting to discuss ds. She said the school didn't believe ds' diagnosis (made by one of the consultants at Great Ormond Street), instead his difficulties were caused by his soul not reincarnating properly into his body. At the time he had a tic which involved his right arm suddenly shooting out - we were informed this meant he must have done something bad with his right arm during a previous life... When I said I wasn't prepared to discuss my son in those terms I was told that I had to accept that all the staff at the school saw him as a failed reincarnation...

Needless to say we got him out of there as fast as humanly possible...

ShootPeppaPig · 07/04/2015 21:36

As I say, I haven't experienced any of the woo stuff mentioned, but Basildon that sounds horrific Sad

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