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Steiner Schools

146 replies

corelegacyfitness · 27/03/2015 08:01

What are your thoughts on Stenier Educations?

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 07/04/2015 22:02

If your children have been taught maths by means of gnomes or have played with faceless dolls then your family has indeed had a brush with the deepest of woo. Or if they have done any wet on wet watercolour art.

AliceAnneB · 07/04/2015 22:14

Mathanxiety have you had any direct Steiner experience? It might be helpful to hear what it has been and where since you clearly feel very passionately.

Siri123 · 07/04/2015 23:14

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Siri123 · 07/04/2015 23:24

You might also be interested to know we are dovetailing the Steiner curriculum with KS3 in our Middle School (children change teachers at age 11) to prepare children moving on to mainstream school in Year 8,9 or 10. It is a new project just 3 years old so still developing. But it has had some great results.

mathanxiety · 08/04/2015 01:49

I do indeed have experience of Steiner 'education'.

I hope your question is not an attempt to imply that only the initiated can truly understand and appreciate the Steiner approach. This is another phenomenon that is characteristic of Steiner threads, along with painting of questioning and criticism of Steiner ed as an indication of being part of some 'anti-Steiner brigade'.

I have no interest in seeing a school that pretends not to be a Steiner school -- in that respect (and I am sure in all other respects) your Steiner school is very typical, and please stop advertising it.

It would be nice if you would instead address comments on the true nature and purpose of Eurhythmy, on Anthroposophy as the fundamental belief informing all Steiner educational and medical practice, and the notion of karma as it relates to students, and especially to those with SEN.

And contrary to what you claim about an alleged bold new experiment in Steiner education that has somehow got nothing to do with Steiner education, all Steiner schools are united by their adherence to the teachings of the guru Rudolph Steiner. Guru is a very apt choice of words considering the influences on Anthroposophy.

favouritewasteoftime · 08/04/2015 07:18

Siri and anybody else who may know - is the Steiner School Certificate is planned for the UK schools? Is it likely to be accredited in the UK and accepted by universities? Do you have an opinion on whether it's a useful qualification?

ShootPeppaPig · 08/04/2015 08:18

I'm not sure favourite but I did enquire about whether I could apply to be a classroom assistant in one and was told without being steiner trained there wasn't much point in me applying...

MrsBanana · 08/04/2015 08:39

Siri
Is there a reason you talk about movement practice to balance rather than the term eurhythymy?
It does seem rather like obfuscation.

MrsBanana · 08/04/2015 08:50

Interesting also that Siri refers to the school's most recent inspection report...has it been inspected by OFSTED? Or by a group affiliated to Steiner schools?

claraschu · 08/04/2015 09:06

A very good friend of mine taught in a Steiner secondary school in Holland, after first teaching in a bog-standard secondary.

She is well aware of all the woo and the racist overtones (she is black); however, she found that there were many many good things about the Steiner approach, which was a huge relief after the institutional and generic feel of her first teaching placement.

She felt that each child was cherished and seen as an individual, and teachers never spoke in a dismissive or critical way of even very difficult students. She felt that a very high proportion of the teachers had a real calling to be teachers, and a strong belief in their own and the students' value. She liked the fact that the kids all saw drawing and art as valuable ways to learn, and were also very good at it. She liked the fact that other types of learning and non-mainstream subjects were deeply valued, so there were days devoted to things like organic gardening, different sorts of drama, sourdough bread making, etc.

I am writing this because I think it is very easy to demonise and sneer at Steiner schools, and that the truth is more complicated. Some Steiner schools have loads of good qualities not shared by mainstream schools, a relatively low level of irritating mysticism, and no more bigotry than your average secondary school.

onadifferentplanet · 08/04/2015 09:11

Favourite, ds is doing the SCC. I am happy that it is a useful qualification . The work he is producing is certainly on a par with that of his older brother who got A*/A for all his GCSEs at a top ranking independent school. Ds hopes to do a Maths degree and certainly has the ability. One thing that pleases me is whilst he is likely to do so at a RG Uni, he isn't hung up on it being the be all and end all like his brother's school was! We have spoken to several universities all of which have said they would give someone with a Steiner qualification the same consideration as any other potential student.

merrymouse · 08/04/2015 09:38

Steiner died in 1925 and I think his work reflects this.

I think many of his ideas - e.g education as a holistic experience involving all the senses, the importance of practical work - are still important today.

However although the world has changed since 1925 (not least in science) many Steiner schools and waldorf enthusiasts follow his writings very rigidly, basing their rational on a mixture of bad science and woo.

favouritewasteoftime · 08/04/2015 13:26

onadifferentplanet thank you, that's good to know.

Siri123 · 08/04/2015 13:51

Mathanxiety what you describe does not reflect our school in Greenwich. I invite you to visit simply in order to show you this. I am joining these discussions to 'advertise' what we do because your description misrepresents what we do in Greenwich. I know of course there are many people who treat Rudolf Steiner as a guru but that does not happen here. You may be surprised to hear we do not have a College of Teachers but a Senior Management Team and Teaching body accountable to SMT. In a recent vision process involving all staff and trustees we agreed it was not necessary for teachers to following anthroposophy, only to understand the educational aspects of which the key element is teaching a child in accordance with child development which I loosely described above and to ensure we question everything by asking whether it is in the best interests of the child. No one has told us we can't do this although there will of course be those who disagree. Karma is never used as a bench mark for anything we do in the school, least of all as a way to 'blame' children for their difficulties. Apportioning blame in that way is in any case contrary to my understanding of karma but I do not deny your experience just that not everyone sees it like that.

As regards SEN I was not referring to Eurthmy actually but other things used here. INPP therapy is the main 'alternative' therapy along with Johanssen Therapy. However at our next inset day training is being delivered by an Occupational Therapist and as I said before we have had training this year from an Ed Psych and local authority Specialist Teacher regarding autism.

As regards the new Steiner qualification I have not been able yet to do my own research. I would check yourself how universities see it as well as looking carefully at the content. But it seems from this thread someone has done that already and is in favour. I would always recomend doing your own research though.

Lastly, mathsanxiety my view is that questioning Steiner education is good and to be welcomed. You have raised things I will certainly be checking out further.

basildonbond · 08/04/2015 14:17

Btw our experience was relatively recent and at a London steiner school (not Greenwich)

mathanxiety · 08/04/2015 18:39

As I said, I am not interested in seeing yet another Steiner school that pretends to be purely child centred and not to be a Steiner school. Most Steiner schools pretend not to be Steiner schools. Seen one, seen them all.

Most also pretend not to have anything to do with Rudolph Steiner or Anthrosophy or to be concerned with incarnation as opposed to academic progress. Most do not use the actual terms for the practices students are exposed to, such as Eurythm, when speaking to the parents of prospective students.

'Karma is not used as a benchmark' is a nonsense statement that has as much relevance and meaning as 'karma is not used as a recipe for macaroni cheese'. Karma and the notion of incarnation inform every element of Steiner curriculum and every element of the physical environment in Steiner schools, and every element of Steiner pedagogical practice. You have to be Steiner-trained to teach or even be a TA in a Steiner school. This is because of the nature of the work Steiner schools attempt and its philosophical foundation, which cannot be contaminated or diluted by other approaches or assumptions on the part of staff.

INPP therapy (Institute for Neuro-Physiological Psychology) is indeed pretty 'alternative'. Here is a chunk of the Telegraph obit for the founder of this Institute, Peter Huxley-Blythe:

"A vehement anti-communist who admired strong leadership, after WW2 Huxley-Blythe became involved in various extreme-Right groups. He became an associate of the American political thinker Francis Parker Yockey, founder of the European Liberation Front (ELF, a small neo-fascist group that split from Mosley’s British Union Movement in 1948), and of Guy Chesham and Baroness von Pflugl who helped to finance the publication of Yockey’s Imperium (1948), in which he argued for the creation of a fascist united Europe to defend Western culture.

The ELF’s “12-point plan” demanded “the immediate expulsion of all Jews and other parasitic aliens from the Soil of Europe” and the “cleansing of the Soul of Europe from the ethical syphilis of Hollywood”. Huxley-Blythe became the editor of Frontfighter, the ELF’s journal, and later on, in the 1950s, published the newsletter of a British-German group Natinform (Nationalist Information Bureau)…

In addition, with Roger Pearson, he helped to organise the Northern League, a neo-Nazi organisation dedicated to saving the “Nordic race” from the “annihilation of our kind” and to fighting for survival “against forces which would mongrelise our race and civilisation” (leading members included the former Nazi eugenicist Hans Günther)…"

He apparently earned a PhD in 'psychosomatic medicine' from an unnamed American university.

Speakers at INPP conferences have included Dr Richard T. "I'm not opposed to jabs but.." Halvorsen, who speaks of 'the medical and political establishment' and 'the excessive influence of commercial interests' while asserting he has nothing against vaccination.

"For all the hysteria that the Government and big business generated in support of the vaccine programme for teenage girls, cervical cancer only comes in 19th place on the list of cancers that kill women in modern Britain.
In 2005, just 911 women died of the disease. Though every death was obviously a terrible blow to the victim's family and friends, this figure pales beside the 12,000 who died from lung cancer or the 11,000 who succumbed to breast cancer.
Indeed, cancers of the brain and the kidneys proved more deadly to women than those of the cervix, yet there is little publicity about these diseases."

Dr Halvorsen is quite a sly and even a disingenuous antivax campaigner. He fails to note that unlike lung cancer or kidney cancer, cervical cancer has an identifiable cause that can be vaccinated against.

Another speaker is Dr. Ursula Anderson.
"To go Beyond the Genome, therefore, is to examine not only the genes themselves, but the quality of the energy present within the memories embedded within them that control their expression. These energies are inherited not only at conception, but also derive from the environments we experience from conception through pregnancy, birth, childhood and adult life. These energies play a pivotal role in controlling how genes express themselves - for better or for worse.

Research into the role of ENERGY and it's (sic) multitude of frequencies has led to knowledge of the vital role it plays in the human mind, body and soul. When the energy frequencies that control human thought, feeling and behavior remain within functional ranges, the opportunities for the functional expression of genes is the greatest. When these energy frequencies are damaged, by whatever means, the expression of the genes is also damaged and dysfunction and/or disease ensues."

'The vital role of energy in life'
"Multiple research and observations of the past 100 years now shows that what happens at birth and in the first few years of life is built upon the foundations laid by the quality of energy conveyed at conception and experienced during intra-uterine development. It has a tremendous impact on the outcome of the developing individual. It determines many things with relevance to just about every aspect of human experience.

At this point it is well to point out that it is in fact altered energy and its altered messages that initiate and then maintain the electrochemical changes in the body and brain which, being measurable, have up until now been believed to be the cause of psychiatric disorder and human dysfunction."

The pivotal role of memory and consciousness'
"The physical immune system, in fact, works from MEMORY. To immunize from disease is to invite the immune system to create memories of defense against particular organisms so that, if attacked again by any of these same organisms, it will kick in its memories of how to cope with that specific organism to eradicate or minimize its effects.

Likewise, the manner in which we cope with and defend against threats in our life experience, real or perceived, are stamped into the memory banks of our souls, enhancing or casting a shadow over the primal memory of our beginnings. These memories are encoded into our genes, promoting trans-generational transference."

ShootPeppaPig · 08/04/2015 22:12

Woah, how did this suddenly become an anti vax thread?

mathanxiety · 09/04/2015 00:30

Weirdly enough, ShootPeppaPig, Steiner schools are hotbeds of antivax sentiment and several outbreaks of illnesses have been traced to Steiner school communities. According to Rudolph Steiner, vaccination interfered with karmic activity and impeded the process of incarnation. In the anthroposophical view, childhood diseases such as measles, mumps, whooping cough, etc., are necessary steps along the road to incarnation.

'Who gets measles in Europe?'
The answer is:
Roma, Irish Traveller, and Ultra Orthodox Jewish communities, and Steiner school populations.

Siri123 · 09/04/2015 00:34

Mathanxiety I am sorry you do not want to visit.

I did say INPP was one of the 'alternative' methodologies used and that we do engage also with more mainstream methodologies too. Teachers find it works with some children and since it involves sets of movements it is hardly sinister or indeed damaging if it is not successful. Some children have issues for which there is no obvious answer. Experimental methods can give some hope even if they work in ways which are not obviously scientific.

Not sure how the vaccination issue came up. It is a well trodden one causing strong feelings of course. We do not advise on vaccinations one way or the other. It is not the role of a school. It is a personal decision. We have parents who don't vaccinate and parents who do. I have vaccinated my children.

mathanxiety · 09/04/2015 01:20

When is the last time that someone completely supportive of childhood vaccination has spoken at an INPP conference?

Why do Steiner schools associate with groups such as INPP that peddle woo instead of science and provide a forum for anti vaccination figures?

What exactly do you mean by the term 'not obviously scientific'?
I take it you do not mean 'obviously not scientific.'

Therapeutic methods are are either based in science, peer reviewed, and accepted by the wider therapeutic or medical community, or they are not. If they are not based in sound science, then schools have no business peddling what is essentially snake oil to vulnerable people.

Vaccination has come up because I am using it to illustrate the overlap between Anthroposophical medicine and education. I am also using it to illustrate the sort of intellectual and cultural climate found in communities centred around Steiner schools. The taste for the alternative and the tendency to look down noses at the mundane and the mainstream (including facts, figures and science in general) is encouraged by Steiner schools. In turn, that climate attracts a certain type of parent.

claraschu · 09/04/2015 01:48

Mathanxiety, you claim that a teacher must be Steiner trained to teach at a Steiner school. My very close friend taught at a Steiner school in Holland and is certainly not Steiner trained (she had absolutely no Steiner training or previous experience working in a Steiner school, and is not a Steiner groupie). I wrote some positive things about her experiences Wednesday at 9 AM.

I think your claim that all Steiner schools are exactly the same is a bit extreme, and slightly hysterical sounding.

HellKitty · 09/04/2015 04:46

They helped with my SEN DC, not. He is ASD but then undiagnosed, at 3 it was suggested that he only comes to the Steiner kindergarten 3 days a week, then 2, as it upsets the other children, especially the one little shit who was constantly picking on him but we all had to be gentle with her as her parents were getting divorced - bullshit. DC2 was 5 and desperate to read but wasn't allowed as reading wasn't taught at that age, luckily he picked it up and raced ahead when we went mainstream. He was also physically and violently bullied which only stopped when I approached the parents - the bully's dad would run off like a pussy whenever he saw me. And then there was the time one assistant was so happy that her child had measles and they were going to throw a measles party.. 'Somebody' informed the NHS who sent someone over to interview the school and they denied everything.

More quack than an army of ducks imo.

mathanxiety · 09/04/2015 07:07

ShootPeppaPig Wed 08-Apr-15 08:18:50
I'm not sure favourite but I did enquire about whether I could apply to be a classroom assistant in one and was told without being steiner trained there wasn't much point in me applying...

ShootPeppaPig has it right.

Steiner schools do not hire people who do not have Steiner certification unless there are exceptional circumstances. This certification can be as well as existing qualifications or degrees for upper school teaching, and as well or instead of them for primary teaching.

A school wishing to call itself a Steiner (or Waldorf, or Steiner Waldorf) school has to undergo a process of evaluation and accreditation and pay annual dues to the SWSF (currently 2% of annual income). It is all quite prescriptive and formalised.

Accreditation in the Steiner Waldorf Schools Fellowship --
'The purpose of accreditation:
Steiner Waldorf education centres are independent, self-administering bodies that have chosen to associate in order to promote, advance & develop the method of education, founded upon the model created by Rudolf Steiner for the first Waldorf School & developed subsequently through the educational practice & research of educators & settings worldwide. The Steiner Waldorf Schools’ Fellowship is the associative body for the UK & Republic Ireland is in turn a member of the European Council for Steiner Waldorf Education, which consists of representatives of similar bodies. The Trustees of the SWSF carry legal responsibility for the UK association and its activities.

In order to be able to play a full part in this associative work & carry the responsibilities this implies it is recognised that individual projects & initiatives need to establish themselves on firm foundations. The stages of membership reflect this. Full member schools substantially subsidise services to developing ones, in recognition of their co-responsibility & inter dependence. The SWSF has a duty to promote & support the provision of a quality education in all its member organisations.'

Stages of accreditation:
'Membership of the SWSF thus normally follows the following stages:
Registered Interest Group
Provisionally/Recognised Early Years’ Setting
Provisionally/Associate Member School
(Full) Member School'

An example of the process --
Early Years Steiner Waldorf accreditation:
'Settings would need to show that –
a) There has been adequate preparation -
i. There is commitment to & understanding of the fundamental principles of Waldorf education, & in particular, the Waldorf curriculum as relevant to Early Years’ work
ii. There is a viable group of children, parents & supporters of the initiative to sustain it
iii. There are suitably qualified & experienced teaching staff
iv. Suitable premises, equipment and outdoor facilities are available
v. There is sufficient & appropriate administrative support
vi. There is sufficient planning relevant to the size of the initiative for key areas, such as: study, ongoing professional development, communications &public relations, curriculum & evaluation, governance & finance*

*N.B. Regarding governance – There is no requirement for REYS to be formal not-for-profit, or charitable organisations. However, adequate structures are needed to ensure the work can be managed in accordance with legal & regulatory requirements & with a view to sustainability. In the absence of formal governance structures, it is strongly recommended that an early years’ practitioner wishing to establish a new setting identifies local supporters & others with appropriate skills or expertise to be part of a “Circle of Support” with regular meetings to provide mentoring, advice, listening & reflection for those working in the setting. For settings intending to develop towards becoming schools, it is recommended that charitable, or not-for-profit, status is sought early on.'

Further on in the process --
'Provisional associate membership:

  1. Provisional Associate membership will normally be conferred when a school opens, provided it is shown that:
a) There has been adequate preparation - i. There is commitment to & understanding of the fundamental principles of Waldorf education, in particular the Waldorf curriculum ii. A registered company with not-for-profit status has been established which includes a wording to the effect that the purpose of the activity is to provide education based upon the principles of Rudolf Steiner (or similar) iii. There is a viable group of children, parents & supporters of the initiative to sustain a school iv. There are suitably qualified & experienced teaching staff v. Suitable premises, equipment and outdoor facilities are available vi. There is sufficient & appropriate administrative support vii. There is effective planning addressing key areas, such as: study & communications, public relations & publicity, curriculum & evaluation, governance & finance.'

From the code of practice --
'3. Teaching & Learning:
The setting is comprehensive, with policy & implementation aligned so as to respond to the needs of each child. The setting provides a broad & balanced curriculum founded on Waldorf principles, commensurate with development of its pupils & in keeping with the twin principles of freedom in determining educational content through action research & a thorough application of core values. Thus methodology & curriculum is determined & developed through a process of individual action & deep reflection (including meditation) by the relevant members of staff, moderated by subsequent study & collegial dialogue. The relationship between staff & pupils is open, warm & appropriate. A majority of lessons or sessions effectively engage pupils (in terms of activity & discussion, but also inwardly, by appeal to imagination) so that learning is constructively enhanced over time. Teachers & other members of staff participate in regular dialogue & training aimed at improving their professional capability, supported by regular review & records of pupil progress, including peer moderation...'

www.steinerwaldorf.org/steiner-teachers/advisory-service/

mathanxiety · 09/04/2015 07:29

From www.steinerwaldorf.org/steiner-education/a-distinctive-education/ --
"Assessment
The unique qualities of each child can be observed and described, but not always measured. The development of every pupil is closely monitored, mainly through ongoing formative assessment and in-depth study."

Assessment involves 'child study', which goes as follows:
(Excerpts from the 'Class Teachers' Handbook', authored by Steiner Waldorf School Fellowship advisor Kevin Avison) --
"Guidelines for Child Study
Stage 1

  1. Soul Calender verse corresponding to week of child’s birthday is read at the beginning. Possibly a candle may be lit.
  2. Describe the child objectively: (It can be helpful to show a photo of the child for those in the circle who do not teach the class)
a) Height, weight, build, proportions b) How does the child sit, stand, walk and run? (colleagues may attempt to imitate these, describing their observations and what qualities they perceive) c) Facial expression and gaze d) Other features (eyes, nose, ears, and hands…) e) Laterality
  1. Speech qualities: volume, pitch, modulation and flow and any disturbances such as stammering or sounds incorrectly pronounced
  2. Thinking qualities: memory, imagination, practical intelligence and ability to learn
  3. Feeling qualities: enthusiasm or apathy, friendships and other significant relationships, emotional response, fears
  4. Will qualities: ability to see something through once started, strong likes or dislikes towards foods, initiative, assertiveness
  5. Brief background biography. Show some characteristic school work (both good and bad) If there is plenty of time, in special circumstances some of the above might be dramatised or drawing might be used to indicate certain qualities.

Stage 2

  1. Soul Calender
  2. Briefly review then characterise
  3. Constitution, temperament, character type (adolescents)
  4. If the child were a landscape, a plant, an animal, which and why?
  5. From Class 6 upwards, imagine the child in a particular cultural epoch or historical setting – which, what and why? (All colleagues help to build these pictures trying to avoid any unconscious sympathy or antipathy by being aware of this danger for one another)
  6. Finally if the child has a birthday verse this should be read by the teacher with some indication for the intentions within it.

Stage 3
What is this child asking of me as a teacher and of us all as colleagues in the school?
Shorter one-off studies of a whole class or group of children may also be held."

Assessment of readiness to progress to a higher class:

"Readiness for Class One
Decisions as to whether a child is ripe to leave the Kindergarten will have consequences right through the child’s schooling and call on the insights of all those concerned with the child. The Kindergarten teacher, prospective Class One teacher (if possible), College of Teachers, school doctor and the child’s parents need to be involved. Where there is any doubt, a detailed child study will be necessary involving further considerations than those listed here. It goes without saying that none of these should be made known to the child.

Date of Birth
The Class One child should have seen seven Easters on earth.
Bodily Proportions and Characteristics
Differences due to constitutional type should be taken into account."
....

"1.9.3
Classes Four and Five Skills Checklist
Use combinations of colours including variations of brown"
....

Bilberry · 09/04/2015 07:42

mathanxiety, I agree about the woo etc. But one thing that puzzles me about when I hear about their approach to SEN is Camphill schools/communities. These can be very successful and I know one which is very popular with parents with kids with ASD - how does this fit when mainstream steiner schools appear so shocking in this regard?