Steiner Schools

[corelegacyfitness]

What are your thoughts on Stenier Educations?

I assure you that 'what I have read' includes far, far more than what I have posted here.

It includes materials from Steiner parent courses my old neighbour attended, including 'Theosophy of the Rosicrucia' by Rudolph Steiner (laws of karma, epochs of evolution, future of humanity, life before birth and after death..), and
'Guidance in Esoteric Training' which contains the following chapters --
Contents
Prefatory Note
The Task of Spiritual Science
General Demands 'which every aspirant for occult development must put to himself'
Main Exercise
Explanation of the foregoing Main Exercise

And also but not by any means limited to:
[[http://wn.rsarchive.org/Education/GA034/English/RSP1965/EduChi_essay.html 'The Education of the Child in the Light of Anthroposophy', as essay by Rudolph Steiner that originally appeared in the periodical 'Lucifer-Gnosis'. It is most remiss of Steiner schools not to include this gem in their prospectuses.

Plus 'Drawing and Painting in Rudolph Steiner Schools' by M. Junemann and F. Weitmann. (Hawthorn Press -- an anthroposophical publisher).

And many more.

Siri --
'I can only talk about our school where I know how things are and what we are trying to achieve and the good quality education'
-- and yet you make definitive statements about other Steiner schools worldwide that we are all supposed to accept as relevant?

'You put your own interpretation on all the stuff you have quoted which is not based on experience or knowledge of the practice in each school and you will not hear that schools are different or capable of being discerning and do not actually take on board everything Steiner ever said or that they take time and thought to develop their teaching practice, comply with the law and seek to be good effective schools.'

I have heard before everything you are posting about the way that Steiner schools are not in fact anything to do with Anthroposophy or the writings of Rudolph Steiner, and that no two schools are alike, they all go their own merry way, etc., (a claim that runs smack into the fact that there are fully functional Steiner accreditation boards in every country Steiner operates, incidentally.) When you make pronouncements on every other Steiner school you directly contradict what you have already said about your own knowledge and experience being limited to one school only, but heyho.

Your understanding of what Steiner schools are has no basis in the theory underlying it, the philosophy that is its foundation, the pedagogy or the reasons behind it.

If your non-Steiner-Steiner-school is accredited by the Steiner Waldorf Schools Fellowship, then it is a mainstream, orthodox, anthroposophical school just like all the rest of the nationally accredited Steiner or Waldorf schools worldwide and for whatever reason, you are just not willing to discuss its true nature. If it is not accredited by the SWSF then you are not talking about a Steiner school or in the process of accreditation (I posted a link to this upthread) and cannot use the example of your school to make general comments about any others that are.

The only reason I can see for the majority of people associated with Steiner education to try to hide the true nature of Steiner schools is Steiner's own comments:

'...remember that an institution like the Independent Waldorf [Steiner] School with its Anthroposophical character, has goals that, of course, coincide with Anthroposophical desires. At the moment, though, if that connection were made official, people would break the Waldorf School’s neck.'

'In choosing your words, never say ‘prayers,’ say ‘words for opening the school day.’ We should not hear the word ‘prayer’ in the mouth of a teacher. Thus you will neutralize to a large extent the prejudice against Anthroposophic matters.'

'The Education of the Child in the Light of Anthroposophy'

Yes you should be worried, Pipi.

Siri, I completely agree with all mathanxiety has written. I had children at Steiner waldorf for quite some time; I know the system well; luckily got them out but only after much heart ache and agony. There are many many people who have been in the schools and got out who have written about them so your point to Mathanxiety carries little weight.
Your posts seem an attempt to sell this system and you aren't answering questions. I remember a piece on BBC news a while back when someone from your school came on and made a desperate attempt to sidestep critics, also without answering questions.

A quick whizz round the Greenwich Steiner School website confirms that they are very much rooted in much of what has been discussed here, if you look at the 'ethos' page, the reading list for parents the Karmic child' etc, the dress code (no black leggings or jeggings), Eurythmy, and no TVs, computers, DVDs , AT ALL. not just at school- no access for children to these things at home, either. There also appears to be no science curriculum until the end of primary age. But the link to the Steiner belief is iterated on the website loud and clear, in the ethos etc pages.

Oh, and parents are expected to clean the school and paint classrooms. (Good in many ways - I like a co-operative communal approach.)

It sounds like a way of life, really - surely the whole family has to buy into it if there is a screen ban in the home until secondary age?

But mainstream schooling also has an underlying ethos which turns out to be a bit dubious if looked at in absolute terms. Isn't it just that the ethos followed by most schools is more or less invisible to us because it is so familiar that it has become the norm? E.g. the underlying assumption behind mainstream schooling is that competition between peers is a good thing - therefore cramming for exams, having the latest phone etc. is the norm. Yet parents complain bitterly on Mumsnet about such pressures and demands put on their children. Natives of the country I live in look at this aspect of British schooling with discomfort as their culture emphasises cooperation and modesty. Those locals who send their children to British curriculum schools frequently comment negatively on the traits they see developing in their kids as a result of the competitive nature of this school system yet we are programmed to see these same behaviours as normal, even desirable.

Is eurhythmy and the philosophy behind it really stranger than running trying to hit a ball with a stick and the philosophy behind that? Is stipulating that children shouldn't wear black, logos or tight fitting clothes any stranger than having them dress identically and needing the 'correct' trainers/bag/flask to be accepted? Is discouraging screens stranger than using iPads and SmartBoards at every opportunity?

Surely it's not unreasonable to claim that some Steiner schools have anthroposophy as an informative backdrop rather following it rigidly?

Having said that, some of the posts describing what has happened to children in Steiner schools are shocking. It's unforgivable that schools have allowed that to happen.

favouritewasteoftime - "Is eurhythmy and the philosophy behind it really stranger than running trying to hit a ball with a stick and the philosophy behind that ?Is stipulating that children shouldn't wear black, logos or tight fitting clothes any stranger than having them dress identically and needing the 'correct' trainers/bag/flask to be accepted? Is discouraging screens stranger than using iPads and SmartBoards at every opportunity? "

Yes. Hugely. Believe me. Anthroposophy is completely out there.

'Underlying ethos' is fine when everyone is upfront about it and /or everyone is aware through experience that the ethos is there.

The huge issue with Steiner schools is that Anthroposophy is hidden, the occult aim of the educational process is not shared with parents, and people assume they are getting an ordinary school only touchy-feelier, smaller, cozier, more of a home-like school community, where their children will spend their time being deeply respected and romping in the meadows and doing crafts -- like a real, live Pinterest or Etsy experience.

An occult aim in a school is really, really different from having an ordinary school uniform with all its silly regulations like every other school, or having sports and PE.

Many Britons are attracted to Steiner because it all looks so much more free and easy than what they grew up with. Children in civvies, children not involved in all the rah rah school tie and scarf stuff, everything fuzzy around the edges, lots of pastels, lots of lentil weaving. It is very easy to be taken in by appearances and to allow the visual contrast run away with you, which is why Siri's persistent invitations to visit are made.

Americans, who do not have school uniforms to worry about and whose public schools are far less stiff upper lippish than British schools are, and where children learn to read for the most part at age 5 or 6, see in Steiner a contrast to American life and the American dog eat dog culture -- a hinted at yet never named spiritual element centred around the idea of the sacred child and the sacredness of childhood which is compared to the sink or swim, little or no welfare or inclination to prioritise the common good, individualistic American culture.

The reality is that Steiner education is actually far more prescriptive in its own way than other educational cultures, and can do more damage by far in terms of socio-emotional development and even psychological development because the process seeks to mould the child instead of letting the child's intellect loose on subject matter as he or she advances through the curriculum. It is a far different matter to mould the intellect than to facilitate incarnation. The contrast between Montessori and Waldorf that I posted earlier brings this out. In all schools except Steiner the academic material is central. In Steiner ed the soul is the central focus with the academic function useful only insofar as it can be used to make incarnation possible. The central spiritual exercises in Steiner schools are Eurhythmy, Art and song, with maths important too. Science and reading, English and history are optional extras in Steiner education, thrown in to make it all look more school like.

My experience of (a different) Steiner School is very similar to Siri's. My daughter loves it, the school does well academically and artistically. The children leave as confident young adults and many go on to greater things. (The very impressive young lady who gave us our first tour some years ago has just gone to Cambridge).

The Steiner system suits some children and doesn't suit others. I know that personally I find the hothouse high-achieving private schools which are nearby absolutely horrific and think it pretty awful to do what they do to 5 year olds, but that's just my opinion and with the knowledge that it isn't right for me or my family. I'm sure that the parents who send their children to such schools absolutely believe they are doing the right thing, just as I know that the Steiner School my daughter attends is right for her.

Incidentally she has never done a wet-on-wet painting, black crayons and leggings are allowed, and children are not forbidden reading before the age of 7 if they choose to pick up a book and get on with it. However, I do wonder what it is about Steiner education that gets some people so het up - my family had an horrendous time at a certain type of school yet I wouldn't go about raving that all schools of that type are awful, lying about what they actually teach to children, and churning out mentally-damaged young adults.

My son (very severely autistic) went to the Greenwich parent & toddler group when it first opened. He was aged 2.

They welcomed him & accepted him at a time when he was being shunned by & banned from other mainstream children's groups. I remember his time there fondly. Definitely no weird issues with his problems - everyone was welcoming & accepting & his SN were not a problem. That group kept me a little but sane at a very difficult time. No judgment at all.

"children are not forbidden reading before the age of 7 if they choose to pick up a book and get on with it."

You mean, like, after accidentally digging out a long-lost book from under a mound of earth in the garden? There were certainly no books to be picked up by children anywhere inside the Waldorf Steiner preschool we went to.

"I do wonder what it is about Steiner education that gets some people so het up"

After so many years of hearing from vexed parents on here, what is it that you are still wondering? Here is what I wrote to you back in 2011:

CoteDAzur Tue 21-Jun-11 12:40:38
worldgonecrazy - The problem is not so much the nutty beliefs of Steiner people, but that they hide these nutty beliefs from prospective parents. You know a Catholic school management will be Catholics and that your children will be taught in accordance to Catholic beliefs. In a boarding school, you know that your child will stay overnight. If you were to chose a Buddhist school, you would be told that it is a Buddhist school, that all teachers are Buddhists, and that your child will be taught according to Buddhist principles including reincarnation. However, all you will see and be told during your visits to a Steiner school will be a gentle pedagogy and a vegetable patch, vague half-truths about starting the day with poems and continuing it with dancing and baking bread.

I had three long appointments with the teacher and management of Steiner school here. At no point was there any mention of reincarnation, homeopathy, aversion to vaccines, spirit world, eurythmic dance to communicate with said spirit world, gnomes, a devil talking through electronic devices, artwork needing to be washy watercolors avoiding lines in order for child to remain open to the spirit world, not teaching children to read until their adult teeth come in because that means the spirit has fully reincarnated in their body.

Even to very specific and direct questions I asked, answers were given that avoided mentioning any of the above - in effect, lying through omission and deliberately hiding the true underlying nuttiness philosophy of their school.

totally agree that the problem with Steiner schools is that they hide their beliefs. I also know three children who went to the one in Greenwich - two of them are still there, as they are generally happy, but their parents have engaged outside help with reading as the children desperately wanted to read but it wasn't encouraged at all; the other child had a terrible time and ended up leaving, even though her parents are generally very much in favour of Steiner education. But they found that their child was being punished for not finishing all the food on her plate at lunch.

"Is eurhythmy and the philosophy behind it really stranger than running trying to hit a ball with a stick and the philosophy behind that?"

Oh yes. The strangest sport you can come up with cannot possibly compete in nuttiness with preschool children being instructed to do a dance that is meant to help them communicate with "the spirit world".

I am struck by the contradictions of someone touting the academic strength of the Steiner educational approach (as evidenced by the fact that a past pupil went on to Cambridge) while other Steiner advocates seem to look down their noses at the competitive spirit that engenders that sort of remark and ambition.

Children are most definitely discouraged from reading before their baby teeth fall out. (My neighbour was quite upset that DD4 (aged 5.5) had shown her DD (and best friend, aged 4.5) how letters corresponded to sounds and had effectively shown her how to read. The neighbour's child (bright, curious and persistent) had begged my DD4 to show her what reading was, and how it worked. DD4 decided it would be fun to play schoolmarm, and taught her all she knew using her reader from school.)

If you google Waldorf or Steiner kindergarten images you will find oodles of pictures with not a single book in them. These are classrooms for children up to 6 years old. And they nearly all feature peach blossom coloured walls. Steiner considered the colour 'peach blossom' to be the closest to human skin (do I hear you ask 'But what about people whose skin is not peach blossom coloured...'?) and therefore the living image of the soul. (So much for each school being unique, independent, and nothing to do with Rudolph Steiner.)

From www.chalkboarddrawing.org/ --
Kindergarten (age 5-6):
'In this work [the integration of art into the curriculum], the teacher is given the gift of insight into the child’s very soul being and has been a part of fostering the further development of that soul.'

First Grade (age 6-7ish):
'Some guidance may be needed if the picture becomes too “busy” and detracts from the main idea of the story.' [This is creative?]
'You will often see the temperament of the child shine through in what they choose to add to their drawing.'
[The temperaments are sanguine, melancholic, phlegmatic or choleric.]

Second grade (age 7-8 or so):
'The child seems to be between two polarities. On the one side a deep connection still to the infallible spiritual world lives in her soul. She still sees the world as good and true and maintains a connection to her higher self. But, at times, she will begin to show her human folly as she may lash out at a friend, hide a truth, or play the trickster. Here she finds turmoil in the separation from the spiritual realm and the discovery of the lower human traits...
...The second grade teacher brings a balance to these polarities in stories of saints and legends, exemplifying the higher human self, and in the animal fables, often depicting the lower human traits. Here the child is gently ushered into the transition from first to second grade.'
'The wispy aroma floating off the dish will appeal to the phlegmatic!' [i.e. the child with a phlegmatic temperament]

Third grade (age 8-9):
'For an excellent book written on the nine year change, see Hermann Koepke’s 'Encountering the Self'.
The answer to all of this lives in the brilliant Waldorf curriculum. As A.C. Harwood (2001) states:
"Steiner recommended a sequence of the better known stories of the Old Testament. It is not only that you have here the legend at its highest and grandest - Noah with the animals, Elijah with the ravens, David with his sling, and Joshua with his trumpet - but that the whole story is one of the journey of man from paradise to the earth, that journey which the children themselves are in the act of making. (p.91)"
The third grade Waldorf curriculum gives the nine-year-old the gift of meeting the world that he has come to acknowledge with the tools he will need to live in his new home, the earth.'

Fourth grade (age 9-10):
'...new to the fourth grader is another creation story. This is the time for the Norse Myths. Unlike in the previous year, when the god of the Old Testament stories was immortal and omnipotent, the gods of the Norse Myths are not quite immortal and make many human-like mistakes. They are fallible, jealous, mischievous, hurtful and short tempered. Yet, they must right any wrong they inflict as is customary to uphold their honor. The fourth grader is intrigued by these gods and lives deeply into the stories as they recognize their own folly in the characters. These stories are colorful and rich and can easily be portrayed pictorially in both story and drawing.'

Fifth grade (10-11):
'Equipped with a more enhanced consciousness, the students are now accustomed to standing alone and seeing the world with a new perspective. Where history was more pictorial and personal last year, this year they learn through stories of mankind’s deeds and strivings. There is an inner stirring that allows the child to relate her own humanness through this experience. She is led further and further into the world through the study of geography, yet brought in toward herself through the history of the ancient peoples of India, Persia, Mesopotamia, Egypt and finally Greece. She is led through more creation stories and mythologies, exposed to more of the world’s cultures, ending the year with Greek history. It is here in Greece, where harmony and balance are prized, that ancient history ends..
...The gestures of each of these cultures can be captured through the student’s artwork. The gesture of the ancient Indian is a dreaminess. In Persia, we see an impulse for transformation of the earth and for conquering the spirit of darkness. The cultures of Mesopotamia begin to express themselves with written language, and the Egyptians with their tremendous adaptability in the Nile River Valley. They were driven to achievement leaving a lasting legacy in the construction of monumental pyramids, the field of mathematics, agricultural techniques and medicine to name only a few. Finally, with ancient Greek history, the student comes to find herself at home, in harmony and balance with herself.'

Sixth grade (11-12)
'Bringing a balance to the concrete study of laws pertaining to both physics and social order, the study of medieval times brings the heart of the sixth grader to acts of chivalry, as in many Waldorf schools there is a ceremonial knighthood to partake in.'
[A rite of passage akin to Bar Mitzvah or Confirmation?]

Seventh grade (12-13):
'The Renaissance mimics the seventh grader’s respect of boundaries in that the only boundaries to be acknowledged are those boundaries to be crossed! Here they can experience for themselves great figures that were resolved to see for themselves, do for themselves and not trust authority for its own sake. The Age of Exploration ushers the seventh graders into their own self-realizations by revealing individuals who went beyond the limits and created a new perspective for the world. It is a wonderful time for biographies of great explorers and conquerors of the unknown.'
'In the Waldorf curriculum, each subject of study is brought by beginning and ending with the human being'

Eighth grade (13-14):
In the last year of elementary school, the eighth grader is well on his way to an understanding of humanity in the world in which he lives. This has been brought to them through years of instruction that have nurtured their souls and created a space for them to act out of their own thinking, feeling and willing. They have been engaged by a curriculum that meets the developmental needs and soul mood of the child at each step along the way.

An interesting site. We can see how every topic in 'history' is related to some phase the soul is entering and leaving on its journey and the role of the teacher in shepherding students through the soul metamorphosis and into contact with earth and on to humanness.

My dc went to a steiner kindergarten for a year each. Just a year as we felt there was a lot they could get out of it but too much woo for them to stay longer. It's website mentions anthroposophy under 'values' though I never investigated what it was. I just thought they were new-agey with a odd set of alternative beliefs which didn't really sit with mine. I knew they said what I call prayers. I also knew they were pro alternative medicine and had a slightly dated approach to health and safety. What I didn't realise until more recently was how centrally proscribed their whole syllabus is; it wasn't put together by that kindergarten which raises questions about how responsive it is to the children. The children where expected to follow quite a rigid time-table of activities which my older children enjoyed but my younger one didn't so much (but did mean he was encouraged to join in whereas the following year in mainstream nursery where he had free choice (child-led) he always played by himself and didn't have any friends). I remember going to an evening talk there about different bits of a plant having different effects (homeopathy?); I wanted to ask whether I should be using Tate and lyle or silver spoon sugar (one is beet sugar the other is cane) but decided I had better bite my tongue instead!

My daughter's school doesn't teach anthoposophy, though it does advertise talks and courses for those parents who are interested to learn more. It's not exactly hiding it, is it?.

Incidentally, mentioning someone went to Cambridge is not about competitiveness, just demonstrating that academic achievement is possible, to counteract those comments that say that children are not prepared for the outside world. I actually think the young adults leaving my daughter's school are far better prepared for the outside world than most of those leaving the local state comp. Simple things such as self-responsibility, self-motivation, dynamism, confidence . . . . .

"You mean, like, after accidentally digging out a long-lost book from under a mound of earth in the garden? There were certainly no books to be picked up by children anywhere inside the Waldorf Steiner preschool we went to."?? I'm sorry, I didn't realise you had no books within your home environment - I do feel sorry for you and your children if that is the case. Reading is such a great pleasure.

I'm guessing that you also don't believe that people have souls, and that is absolutely your right to have that belief. I believe differently.

And to be honest, I don't really care what individual teachers believe or don't believe. They can be Pastafarians if they want. Steiner teachers do not teach their beliefs or anthroposophy to the children. Incidentally the "ceremonial knighthood" is not actually that, it's sometimes called the Parsival Quest, where the children spend time learning, discussing and perhaps acting out the myth of the Fisher King, and from this they learn that they are now of an age where they need to start taking responsibility for themselves, their actions and the consequences of those actions. I find that a greater and more important step towards adulthood than worrying about their prom dress.

Actually, I think that the state of our state education system is beyond dire - one only needs to read some of the articles by teachers to realise that, and one only needs to read about the terrible pressures our young children are facing within the state system - children off sick with stress because of SATS, children being cajoled into sexting and other behaviour, children being shunned as pariahs because their parents can't afford the latest brands or fashions, girls wearing makeup an inch thick in order to be accepted by their peers, at my school homosexuality didn't exist, so you can imagine how damaging that was to my gay friends. I am glad that my daughter will have no part of that system.

I realise I am speaking to a wall as you have no wish to accept that there are positive experiences within the Steiner educational framework, but perhaps my comments may help those who are more open minded.

worldgonecrazy - re "I didn't realise you had no books within your home environment - I do feel sorry for you and your children if that is the case. Reading is such a great pleasure."

Thank you for this moment of hilarity, so early in the morning

The point, of course, was the idiocy of a "school" not having a single book. We have loads of them at home, don't you worry about us

Since you seem so interested in my family, you might like to know that I am trilingual (English is not my mother tongue) and so are my DC. DS doesn't read yet but DD (9) is an avid reader in all three of her languages. I have read 51 books in 2013, 63 books in 2014 and I am currently on my 25th book of 2015. Funny, I have never seen you on MN's Adult Fiction topic. Reading being such great pleasure and all, maybe you would like to come and chat to us about the books you read one day.

"I don't really care what individual teachers believe or don't believe."

Within reason, sure. However, I do care (very much) if the adults I trust with my children who are also responsible for their education and well-being for most of the day are not entirely rational and have crazy beliefs such as a devil called Ahriman speaking to people through electronic devices, and especially if they are teaching my child a dance so she can "communicate with the spirit world"

How would it be viewed in a Steiner school if a child was taught to read and write at home before age 7? If the child wanted to learn, would that be acceptable or would it be considered to detract from the overall aims of delaying formal work? Genuine question - I am interested to know.

Worldgonecrazy --

That is the thing about Steiner schools They do not teach formal Anthroposophy classes. But every single element of their pedagogy, the curriculum, the intertwining of art through the classes, the physical environment (wall colours, materials, play props, etc) are 100% orthodox Anthroposophic.

Nothing in a Steiner school is random or there by chance. Nothing in the environment and nothing in what is communicated to the children is conjured out of thin air.

To say a school does not formally teach Anthroposophy is therefore extremely disingenuous.

Wrt your flippant remarks about belief in souls -- I am a Catholic. I believe people have souls. But I do not believe in reincarnation. Or karma. And I do not send my children to a school to have their soul connected to the earth and into their bodies over the course of 12 or 13 years.

I sent my children to a RC parish school where the administrators were completely upfront about the fact that there were crucifixes on the classroom walls, a table in each classroom with a statue of Mary, and prayers at the start of the day, grace before and after lunch, and a prayer at the end of the day. Prayers to God the father, Son and Holy Spirit and to Mary the mother of God that is, and occasionally to different saints such as Patrick, Francis, Teresa of Avila, and saint Angela (the school has a link to the Ursuline Sisters). I am happy that they emerged from that school and went on to a huge public high school well able to make and keep friends, to manage their time effectively, to be responsible about homework, to do algebra, use the scientific method, to write grammatically and coherently, speak and write a little Spanish, to respect others and their property, and to have a good sense of responsibility to their community.

I knew before enrolling them because this was stated at a parent meeting that respect for their peers would be taught based on the idea that we are all children of God, that God made us all, unique and with different gifts and that we should cherish our differences, and I knew that they would be taught about human relationships and sex ed with a Catholic perspective once they got to age 10. I knew they would be prepared for Catholic sacraments of Eucharist and Reconciliation in school and that they would have a religion class three times a week and would attend a school Mass once a month. I knew that Confirmation was prepared for outside of school time in evening classes.

What I was not told was that the children would be in a situation where they would stand and face the American flag that was displayed in every classroom and recite the Pledge of Allegiance every day, hand on heart. When I became aware of it, I asked my children what they thought of this practice and they were all happy to go along with it. I asked if anyone didn't recite it, and they said everyone participated. I asked the school administrators what would happen if a child didn't participate and they said it would not be a problem as long as a child did not disrupt the recital. A child could sit down and not participate, and the non participation would not cause remark on the part of the teacher. They apologised for not telling me the Pledge was part of the daily routine. The principal was surprised to learn that no equivalent practice is done in Ireland where I grew up and went to school, or anywhere else internationally that I am aware of. I was satisfied with that though I made a mental note on her American insularity and my own ignorance of an important part of American school life too.

The business with the Pledge showed me how easy it is to get children used to something that is actually quite significant and something they might never experience at home, to participate, to have a practice become part of the fabric of their lives, and how children generally do not question what is expected of them in primary school. It also showed me how easy it is for school administrators to slip something quite significant past parents if they want to.

My children all had comrades in their classes who were not Catholic and I suspect it was so that non Catholic parents could understand the environment and the values the school aspired to, and also so they would understand the time element involved in sacramental preparation and religion class, and what went on in religion class (it wasn't Religious Ed, it was teaching purely about Catholicism) that the RC element of the school was so explicitly spelled out at parent information meetings. Non Catholic parents also needed to know if their children were expected to participate in sacramental preparation -- they were allowed to opt out and get homework done or do some reading instead. In my case the school's silence about the Pledge was an oversight based on an assumption that everyone knew that every school in America conducts a classroom recital every morning.

But it could easily have been something else that they omitted, such as the idea that bullying is a process where incarnation is worked out on the part of all the parties concerned and that therefore there would be little or no intervention by the school authorities beyond teachers modelling more adult behaviour.

Incidentally the "ceremonial knighthood" is not actually that, it's sometimes called the Parsival Quest, where the children spend time learning, discussing and perhaps acting out the myth of the Fisher King, and from this they learn that they are now of an age where they need to start taking responsibility for themselves, their actions and the consequences of those actions.
In my children's school this element is called Confirmation.
The religious connotation of the bridge to adulthood is not denied or obscured or dressed up as something else.

The fact that there is acting and discussing and painting associated with the spiritual Parsifal Quest is beside the point and doesn't make the process of allowing the values of chivalry inhabit you any less of a spiritual exercise. The link on chalkboard art that I posted yesterday well illustrates how this exercise is an element in the incarnation process. (There is a depiction of the Fisher King in one of the grade pages).

My DCs all participated in discussion of values, portrayals in art and acting of the gifts of the holy Spirit, discussion and reflection on scripture passages and what the Rubicon of Confirmation meant in their lives. The previous youth minister used to follow a more academic, written programme. The bells and whistles are irrelevant. What is significant to the Quest is the idea of crossing into a new stage of life equipped with values that are more developed than before, and in the Steiner context the spiritual element of that is foremost (though denied) just as the Christian process of preparing for and receiving the sacrament of Confirmation marks a passage, though the spiritual element is generally not denied by Christians.

Favourite -- it is something the child and family would be well advised to keep under their hats.

And like Cote, I very much care what my DCs' children believe. I was dismayed to learn that an English teacher one of them had in high school openly explained her Buddhist beliefs and extolled the Buddhist approach to life. I wouldn't mind the explanation without the personal link if the topic had come up in a piece of literature they were tackling, and I wouldn't mind having them learn about Buddhism in a historical context in their World History course. But hearing an authority figure's personal experience of Buddhism crossed a line, and hearing how nice Buddhism was was another step in the wrong direction. I was not the only parent to complain.

I was also miffed at the Pledge, something I feel should not be done in schools, where impressionable minds are supposedly being taught to ask questions, not to make pledges they may or may not understand to entities that may or may not be worth their allegiance, and never mind the separation of church and state issues raised by both the wording of the Pledge and the fact that it took place in a religious school...

I'm happy to back up Mathanxiety too. We took DD to a Steiner playgroup run by our local Steiner school. In some ways, it was very good for her, as it was quite structured and she didn't like the noise of most toddler groups. But the more I found out about it, the more it became clear precisely how much of a cult it was. I stopped going after the leader spent an entire hour cutting the corners off paper (sharp corners being bad for children's development) rather than interacting with the children. Then I realised she never interacted with the children.

We have friends whose children now go to the school and they have commented how much DD - who was an early and voracious self-taught reader at 4 - would have been disapproved of by the teachers, so I don't think there is a laisser-faire attitude to it at all.

And finally, the anti-vax thing is so related to Steiner that when the planning application went in for the school, the local Health Authority objected on the grounds that vaccination rates in the town would fall.

Sorry but I'm plunging in to have a little at the idea of Cote's house having no books.

WorldGoneCrazy - Had you used the pleasure of reading to actually properly READ Cote's point, it would have been obvious that she was referring to a school that she had visited, rather than to some sort of deprived upbringing or to her family now.

Stage direction: Exit Remus, holding her head in despair.

Interesting discussions. At the risk of igniting a back lash it is important to note that Mathsanxiety quotes a lot of theory but has no direct experience of schools in practice. The one thing I can categorically say is that Steiner education is not a cult. I have been involved with developing Greenwich because I was impressed with the educational and caring approach not because I am a Steiner or anthroposophical person. I liked the therapeutic nature of the whole experience. I thought this good for children - for my own children - who at 15 (Steiner from 2 - 12) are now in a mainstream school. What I see every day is kind, caring, thoughtful teaching. Some teachers believe in re- incarnation and some do not but so what? So do many mainstream teachers. In practical terms it does not seem relevent to the daily run of caring for the children. Most teachers in the school are thoughtful people working on their own self-awareness and how they relate to others - some through anthroposophy, some through their religion, some through humanism but probably mostly through a whole mixture of many different ideas. As a parent the fact that teachers were expected to be working on self- development was a big bonus for me. Of course some are better at it than others but at least everyone is trying - myself included. I ALWAYS talk to prospective parents about anthroposophy and suggest they go to the internet and read the negative stuff and do their own research. I explain some schools are more anthroposophical than others and some teachers are anthroposophist and some are not. Nothing of Steiner's ideas are taught to children until Upper School when it might be part of lessons around world philosophies. There is no mention of re-incarnation for instance. The anthroposophical understanding of child development is what is central in the education not everything ever written by Steiner a hundred years ago and teachers do need to understand that and take account of it so that they teach each thing at a time that co- incides with the child's stage of development, in a way that the child will learn best (by imitation in early years, through imagination in lower school years and through the intellect in teenage years and beyond). As I have said before I can only speak about my direct experience with Greenwich because this is the school I know. Some of the negative experiences of others (and we have had mistakes at Greenwich too - no school is perfect) come partly out of the fact that there is actually great freedom for teachers to do what they think is right - something around which we and some other schools are trying to change to ensure a common experience and professionalism across the school without restricting the creativity of the teacher. In mainstream schools one finds also that teachers are different from each other and children's experiences and successes are often determined by the quality of their connections with individual teachers. Some are good and some not. It is the same in Steiner schools. The difference is in a mainstream school there is a Headteacher who sets the tone and can control all aspects of teaching in the school. Only in State Steiner schools in the UK is there a principal. At Greenwich we have an SMT and some other schools are also introducing a similar system but each is finding their own particular way. Of course Steiner education is about helping the development of all aspects of the child not just their learning - their emotional, social and spiritual life is nurtured. But actually all schools are supposed to do that in the uk. There is an Ofsted category that judges a school 's ability to provide " spiritual, moral, social and cultural development" for which most Steiner schools score highly. The spiritual is done largely through reverence for nature and teachers' respect for the inner feelings of the child demonstrated taking time to understand each child and providing an environment of calm, peace and reverence especially in the early years and teaching with plenty of physical movement and artistic and musical activity.

Whoops - Not sure what happened to my paragraphs! Sorry about that.

favourite it was a question I asked very early on, as both myself and my mother were precociously early readers. The answer was that, if the child genuinely wants to learn to read, then there is no problem with it happening in the home environment. What would be frowned upon is any form of forcing a child to read early. The school recognise that some children are precocious readers and others are better waiting a couple more years.

My child is also vaccinated (to a non-NHS schedule) and this is also a non-issue, as is the fact she has hundreds of books at home. There are also books at the school, dolls with faces, black crayons. Someone who works for Ahriman (sp?) (joke! they were a TV journalist) even came and gave a careers talk to the Upper School.

This is an interesting film for anyone who is interested in having a different view of Steiner education, and why it appeals to those who work in the technology industries who need creative thinkers.

From my (thankfully) hazy memories of confirmation training, we were taught the myth of how the disciples had tongues of flame appear above their heads and began to speak in tongues and how we wouldn't see it but that would be happening to us during confirmation. Personally, I prefer the themes within the Parsifal myth, but each to their own. I find Catholicism every bit as fucked-up, twisted and damaging as some consider Steiner to be (based on my personal and family experiences!).