Level of family income required for private school fees?

[TheABC]

Had an interesting discussion with DH over tea tonight, after reading in the independent supplement that the average cost of fees per term for a day boarder is 4k. We are approaching that in nursery fees for DS and it's a struggle. I can't imagine trying to juggle that sort of cost for two children over 7 or more years. However, clearly a lot of people are, as 6% of all UK pupils are privately educated and I doubt we have that many millionaires.

DH thinks the income ceiling is around the 80k mark, I think it could easily be lower, depending on family circumstances (e.g mortgage commitments). Who is right?

One thing I've noticed about you Bonsoir (if I may be so bold) is that you are very good at putting a positive spin on the circumstances in which you find yourself. I'm not knocking it, I'm just sayin' .

"You'd have to pay me a fortune to endure living in Paris."
god yes esp in some far suburb on the peripherique that would make Watford or Harpenden look positively delightful

Bonsoir you are right about class sizes in this area. The most expensive private has class sizes of 15 and is £2k pa more than all the others, who have class sizes of 25+.

Marsha- that 7% figure is quite skewed by the number of overseas pupils in private schools.

It also varies across age range. It is much lower for primary and much higher for sixth form.

I lived in Paris for a bit and really like it.

But I wouldn't want to send my DC to school there. And nothing bonsoir has ever posted about that, has made me rethink.

As pickled points out, quite the opposite!

That makes sense Jackie

Ironically, there decent state schools in Harpenden, so perhaps a lower need for private schooling!

I think posters here are forgetting the -often- generous bursaries / other forms of financial support available. Around 30 % of Etonians do not pay full fes for example....

Indeed river though you'll need to buy a house like this to get in catchment www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/find.html?locationIdentifier=REGION%5E597&minPrice=1500000&googleAnalyticsChannel=buying

selly 24 Eton does a better job than many on this front but it always did even before Tony Little redoubled its efforts and it's got the resources. What bothers me, other posters and the writer of yesterday's Times leader is that thresholds for bursaries are generally too low and many schools are doing too little to help the squeezed middle.

The Times said, "With a few notable exceptions, funds have been earmarked for bursaries for poor pupils but not those of struggling middle class families on the "needs blind" model...little serious thought has been given to the option that would do most to preserve an element of economic diversity in the schools' intake - to hold down fees."

It is entirely true that French DC have to work incredibly hard at secondary school. This frightens many English parents!

The hard work is the least off putting thing about French education TBH!

what is the most offputting thing then word?

I haven't noticed in the 27 years I have continuously paid school fees (and still counting) a change in the parents at the kinds of schools my children have been at which are probably a bit like the Manchester Grammars of this world. I am sure there is a big difference between boarding and day schools.

I remember one of my son's friends saying he did not go to my older son's school because it was a bit more expensive which surprised me because I didn't think there was that much difference in fees,. let me look it up - £18k v £16k. Yes, not much in it . May be the boy just did not know or perhaps for that family £2k was make or break.

JillyR2015 - of course, you have been looking very closely at the parents concerned to check they have not changed.

sunny for me the worst thing is the strict centralised control of education by the state.

It's too rigid. Even private schools have no real freedom. Everything from the curriculum to pedagogy is determined top down and must be uniformly applied.

It wouldn't be so bad, if those at the top recognised SEN or the value of music, art, drama etc, but they don't.

I imagine it must be quite frustrating for teachers. And very grey for pupils.

oh right yes I think Spain might be a bit like that too.
I have a friend with an autistic son who lives in France and she is getting seriously worried.

TheWordFactory - I know you are a writer of popular fiction but you ought to stop inventing facts to suit your story when posting about the Real World. Choice of pedagogy is entirely at the discretion of the teacher in France - this is a freedom enshrined in law and rigorously defended by the teaching profession.

bonsoir

Are you seriously suggesting that the French education system ( either state or private ) adequately supports SEN?

Are you seriously suggesting that it values art , music, drama, sport etc ?

What bothers me, other posters and the writer of yesterday's Times leader is that thresholds for bursaries are generally too low and many schools are doing too little to help the squeezed middle

Is it too low? I'm not sure that it is too low at all schools, maybe it is at some. Looking at bursary policies for a few schools near me (only have day schools near me), 2 have the household income limit for bursaries set at £58k with any household with an income of under £22k getting a 100% bursary, and a sliding scale between those figures. Both of those schools charge £11k per year and take all household income into account including tax credits and child benefit.
Manchester grammar school sets it's household income limit for being eligible for a bursary at (I think about) £44k but they don't include means tested benefits and they take into account the number of other children in the household that need feeding and clothing and they also deduct (from household income) the fees of any other child already at MGS.
The figures do seem quite low on the face of it but the schools do expect that families will prioritise school fees from their household budget after essential expenses such as housing costs. Should a family with a household income of £58k and school fees of £11k, living in a region with lots of reasonably priced housing, be entitled to a bursary?
I don't see families in my city with a household income of £58k plus as being the squeezed middle.

I have nowhere claimed that it supports SEN (it doesn't, most of the time).

Music is extremely well supported, but in conservatoires, not schools (different model). It is far more accessible (=cheaper and easier to access) that in most parts of the UK.

I have not had any problems at all accessing fantastic art teaching for my DD, again not in school premises but there is excellent provision. I know plenty of young people at art schools in Paris - there are some great ones.

Sport is a very variable quantity. However, it should perhaps be noted that all DC who take the bac take sport and it is counted towards their mean mark. And it is not for the faint-hearted! My DSS2 has one of his bac sport exams tomorrow and has been training intensively.

Drama is not part of the curriculum. There are no teachers of drama in France as far as I can tell and provision of extra-curricular drama for children is quite a recent thing (though growing in popularity).

Where I think the French bac is very strong indeed is in getting DC to do a broad curriculum without sacrificing depth. This is particularly true of Bac S. A DC who gets 16/20 or more in the Bac S is very well educated indeed.

Superexcited If fees are kept low and bursaries are sensibly pitched, as you describe, little squeezing will take place.

It's different in London and the SE where day schools' fees can be up to double MGS's £11k but the bursary threshold is still often around the £55k gross household income mark. With mortgages, this doesn't work any more, hence the interest in the issue.

Which is why i said I'm not sure it is too low at all schools, but maybe it is at some granola. I don't live in London and have no experience of housing costs, school fees or bursary levels in London. Let's remember that the vast majority of people don't live in London and don't have to contend wih London housing costs and therefore might be able to afford full fees on incomes of £55k. It isn't just MGS, the bursary policies across the Manchester consortium of independent schools seems to be quite similar.
If you want to argue that London schools at pricing out the middle income families and have set their bursary limits too low then that is a separate argument and one that I would agree with given that school fees are higher and housing costs are higher.

I have never said "all" schools were squeezing out the middle, Superexcited. On the contrary, I have drawn attention to honourable exceptions, even in London and the SE.

With its typical metropolitan bias, The Times would have us believe that there is a national crisis in the making. That's obviously nonsense but there is certainly a trend amongst some of the big name schools to cater increasingly to the international super rich, thereby abandoning the salaried middle class.

My point is they don't need to do this. It's a choice they have made. They do things better in Manchester.

I agree with granola - it is choice rather than necessity that has driven some schools to cater to the richest families.

Heads and governors are not all, perhaps, immune to the lures of luxury, branding and celebrity.

Combined (me and exP) income of £130k pays two mortgages and one set of school fees between us. I have 75% residence, I receive voluntary child support payments from exP as well as half the fees - but not half of anything else. No way could I afford this on my own, even earning £60k.