Level of family income required for private school fees?

[TheABC]

Had an interesting discussion with DH over tea tonight, after reading in the independent supplement that the average cost of fees per term for a day boarder is 4k. We are approaching that in nursery fees for DS and it's a struggle. I can't imagine trying to juggle that sort of cost for two children over 7 or more years. However, clearly a lot of people are, as 6% of all UK pupils are privately educated and I doubt we have that many millionaires.

DH thinks the income ceiling is around the 80k mark, I think it could easily be lower, depending on family circumstances (e.g mortgage commitments). Who is right?

I agree with hungrydam. Take Manchester Grammar school as an example : an excellent school which is well regarded in the North, annual fees £11k, 20% of students on bursaries (places funded by a bursary fund and not other peoples fees), small classes, excellent facilities, very nice buildings, very culturally diverse.
Manchester Grammar would like to be needs blind and admit every child who passes it's entrance assessments but currently can't do that due to not having enough funds to meet bursary demands but 20% is still quite impressive. House prices in Greater Manchester are also such that many people can afford the full fees. The demand they have for places each year shows that they are able to continue as a business on their current fee level.

I live in a country where private education is pretty much universally "no frills" and there are most definitely arguments in its favour. My DSSs' private school is located in one of the most expensive locations for residential property in Paris, yet DC attend from a wide socio-economic spectrum. The VFM of the education my DSSs have received is incredible and has taken each of them to his full potential. Of course it's very comfortable for DC to attend English schools with 5* country house hotel facilities, Olympic standard sports and proper working theatres. But is it really good for them to be so pampered throughout their youth? I'm not convinced.

Private school in France is as cheap as chips.

They have to follow the NC to the letter of the law, the teachers as paid by the state etc. they are in no way independent.

Their main reason to exist is the exclude the hoi paloi.

Private schools in the UK have a very different raison d'être. The parent body want to be cut loose from the constraints of state diktat ( as much as possible ).

And that costs a lot of dough.

That's not correct, TheWordFactory. You do not seem to have any knowledge of the history of French education. The reason French private schools exist is because they are, historically, (Catholic) church schools and they are, legally, required to educate DC of all faiths. They may operate selection (on criteria of their own choosing) which state schools may not. This generally means that they exclude the badly-behaved (which is not synonymous with the hoi polloi).

Superexcited Manchester Grammar is a very good example of an independent school which has remained true to its principles and which has managed to avoid narrowing its customer base. There are many schools which could learn lessons from it.

It isn't just a matter of location. The school has been well led and has made choices over the years which have allowed it to maintain its reputation and command loyalty from current and former pupils.

20% on bursaries is great but one reason it's possible is that the fees have been kept low at the same time.

I have the impression that if hundreds of bankers and oligarchs moved into MGS's vicinity, its head would not lick his lips, ask them what they'd like to have, give it to them and put the fees up. That's how less pricipled and more shortsighted heads are behaving in numerous schools in London. It's a shame.

TWF It is just not true that "cutting loose from state diktat" costs "a lot of dough*. What costs dough are luxurious facilities, theatres, climbing walls, seminar size classes etc. It's a question of the choices which heads and governors make and who will pay for those choices.

granola - I agree that it is not the independent teaching that costs a lot (my DD's school teaches English and Spanish independently ie parents bear the full costs of teacher and management salaries) and it is surprisingly inexpensive for extraordinarily high quality.

The really big costs are tiny classes and leisure industry standard facilities and accommodation.

granola my observation about cost, was in response to how fees are kept down in France.

The state pay their teachers!

If private schools in the UK had no salary bill, fees would be low too. But they could hardly call themselves 'independent'.

But I will leave you to your crusading on behalf of the poor, oppressed traditional middle classes.

All teachers are paid by the state in French sous contrat private schools and class sizes are determined by law. Class size is a critical cost driver but the ideological reasons behind same-size classes are worth consideration.

TWF I'm on no kind of crusade, least of all on behalf of the middle class.

I'm a strong supporter of independent schools, which is why I am disappointed to see some of our "leading" schools heading off in a direction which many (including, pleasingly, yesterday's Times) consider to be a foolish one.

Teachers in independent schools aren't generally paid much more than their state school counterparts and their perks (eg staff discounts) are often being eroded. It's the head's pay (cp vice chancellors) and the number of teachers that make the difference. Schools which keep a lid on staff numbers and widen their pupil intake manage to keep fees down and attract more applications than ever.

There's absolutely no need to pander to the super rich but I'll leave you to fight their corner.

granola MGS fees are in line with all the other Greater Manchester independent schools. Withington Girls is a top 30 school and fees are similar to MGS. Not nearly the same bursary levels though.
Are there regionally agreed fee levels?

Fee fixing (cartels) is strictly against the law in England.

Jackieharris, I can beat you on low school fees - mine, mid 80s, was £500 a term in the south east.

It was a crap school mind you, large mixed ability classes, unqualified teachers, v uninspiring.

Bonsoir is right. The "Eton Group" got in trouble with the OFT some years ago: www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/jun/30/publicschools.schools

But heads must look over their shoulders.

If a school is following MGS and Withington, it's heading in a good direction. If Alleyns or SPGS are "leading" you, you're heading for trouble and waving goodbye to the salaried middle classes (whether or not anybody is willing to weep for them).

Okay, that's fair enough, I was just wondering if fee level agreement was a thing and not assuming that it was. I suppose all schools have to remain competitive financially though like any other market so it would be silly for one school to charge 50% more than its local rivals.
Obviously the London consortium and Manchester consortium (which MGS isn't part of) have agreements on other things like exam dates and offer dates.

The France argument is similar to the Ireland argument- they too have low fees because teacher salaries are paid by the state. They really aren't models which can financially compare to the UK regardless of grounds or facilities.

I'm following developments in the market for French schools in London with the greatest of interest. Two new schools are opening in September with wildly different price points... Which are different to those of existing schools.

I disagree that it is not useful to compare different regulatory environments for private education and to see what lessons can be learned.

Anecdotally, we considered sending DSS2 to Sevenoaks School to do IB for sixth form. The total budget would have been £80,000 or so. In the end he preferred to stay at his current school with its minimalist costs (€5000 per year all told).

Do I think his education is worse than if he had gone to Sevenoaks? Has he had lesser UCAS offers? Actually - a loud resounding NO!

So why, exactly, do English schools need to be so expensive and, as a consequence, so socially exclusive? What's it for?

Superexcited It is silly to charge 50% more than local rivals but some "leading" schools in London have decided to do precisely that because they can get away with it. They used to have different priorities.

Exactly, Bonsoir, and who's it for?

I am surprised that 6 or is it 7% can afford given the stats on what is the top 1 to 2% of income often stated on here.

In terms of salary, a lot depends on the mortgage amount.

Or perhaps I'm skewed by the expensive of London.

Also if you live in say Harpenden or Watford fee for say Haberdashers girls will be cheaper than further into London as indeed will house prices.

Fees 2014-2015

Junior School - £4,173 per term (£12,519 pa)
Senior School - £4,834 per term (£14,502 pa)
Sixth Form - £4,834 per term (£14,502 pa)

You might buy this £300k house and you might commute into London for work as huge numbers of people do.

www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-45970672.html?showcase=true&premiumA=true

Each to their own. You'd have to pay me a fortune to endure living in Paris.

Indeed, you would undoubtedly find it intolerably challenging, Jilly