Level of family income required for private school fees?

[TheABC]

Had an interesting discussion with DH over tea tonight, after reading in the independent supplement that the average cost of fees per term for a day boarder is 4k. We are approaching that in nursery fees for DS and it's a struggle. I can't imagine trying to juggle that sort of cost for two children over 7 or more years. However, clearly a lot of people are, as 6% of all UK pupils are privately educated and I doubt we have that many millionaires.

DH thinks the income ceiling is around the 80k mark, I think it could easily be lower, depending on family circumstances (e.g mortgage commitments). Who is right?

Precisely, LIZS, you need assets or an inheritance or, as others keep posting, you have grandparents pay. Those must be rich grandparents. Lucky people.

Salaried solicitors used to be able to pay fees (and a mortgage) out of their own net income. FoodPorn is right to vote with her feet but it's a shame it has come to this.

TWF, yes but the pricing out is something which the private schools themselves have inflicted on their former customers.

They could listen to parents and improve access (like the GDST) or target the new market of the international super rich, providing whatever luxuries surveys show those people would like (eg SPGS).

Pandering to those with the highest incomes is not inevitable: it's a business decision which these schools have made.

It could also be priorities. When we sent our first at nearly 5 to her private schools lots of things people take for granted like meals out were something you did not do because you were paying fees. Are people not prepared to make those sacrifices any more? In other words do parents these days put themselves before their children more?

No Jilly, what's happened is that too many schools have decided they are only interested in the kind of parents who can afford inflation busting rises year on year AND who eat out regularly. Not daft because very often the two go together. There are plenty of such people around in London and the SE but independent schools used to reach out to a wider customer base.

4K sounds low to me. But that is still 12K per year. If you only have one child that could be affordable on 80K (more so if that is split between two salaries, so you are paying less high rate tax). But do allow for 5% increase in fees per year, and the cost of long kit lists and extras and trips and...

People I know afford it because: they work for the church and get generous bursaries, grandparents pay, they have two very well paying jobs and so on (most earn 3 figures).

At the local Comp plenty of parents also earn 3 figure salaries etc. but can't afford private education.

Oh god, the old 'sacrifices' chestnut again.

Are you suggesting that London day school fees can't be afforded because feckless, selfish parents are spending £15-20k pa on dinner out instead, jilly?

"Doesn't say much about their education does it?"

what a dippy comment.
When I was at a private school in North London, my peers were the daughters of teachers, police officers, bank personnel and so on.
I can assure you that those girls would not be at a private school these days.

I have to say that we both earn a decent salary and we're looking at our outgoings to work out what we can afford and actually realised that although we don't feel that we waste much money actually we do. Writing down every penny spent has been so worthwhile as we were thinking how we could afford fees plus holidays and a few treats and if cut down our discretionary spending we would be ok.

I do agree about fee inflation v salary increases but I understand this is often due to increases in staff costs rather than making a profit.

"Doesn't say much about their education does it?"

I don't think its a reflection on parents' education at all. We live in a different world and have different priorities. Private school fees have gone up by 10% year in, year out for the last 30 years and salaries have not. State school have raised their game dramatically over the last 30 years.

jilly I don't think its benefical to children to have parents make ridicolus sacrifices. Children enjoy a bit of comfort in their lives as well as having a good education. A car that does not break down or a nice holiday makes family life better. It does a family no good to have parents who are so worn out with over work that their marriage breaks down. Sometimes families spending quality time with each other is more beneficial than attending the best school in the land.

Believe it or not, a hard working child at middling state school can do better than a child at the most expensive private school in the land. There is no point in a child having a privilaged education if they are lazy.

There are other ways that you can help your children in life. You could give your child a flat to live in rather than pay for private education.

2 children at a private senior school costs about 2k a month. That comes out of net income.

A quick back of envelope calculation says that an annual income of 80k would generate net monthly earnings of around 4,500.

If you take 2k school fees out of that, can you live on 2k a month and pay all bills?

I think most people (with a mortgage) might struggle.

I do agree about fee inflation v salary increases but I understand this is often due to increases in staff costs rather than making a profit.

My DC's school used to charge 10k per year in 2009. It now charges 15k per year. I find it hard to believe that staffing costs have increased by 50% in the last six years, given the low increases in teachers' pay over these years.

The school is refurbishing and extending its facilities. Some of the refurbishment is necessary but some is not, imo. I think they could have kept the fee rises down by carrying out more modest refurbishments but the school is very over-subscribed so they can get away with it.

I find quite hard to believe that families in which parents earn six figure incomes can't afford private education, rather than don't particularly want to do so. In my experience a family income of 150k (split between two earners) is quite sufficient to pay for 2 DC at day schools, and many parents do it on a lot less.

Jilly you are living in cloud cuckoo land. Most people could give up eating out for all eternity and still not be able to afford to put one child through private school let alone five. It's so crass and insulting to say that people are not putting their children first.

I'm very lucky in that GP's pay for my 3 DC's to be put through a relatively minor private school - there is no way we could afford it and DH is on a good salary of over 100k.

I know people who put two children through private school on 50K. In the past it was possible to get a lifestyle tracker mortgage that was 0.5% above the base rate. You could extend your mortgage PROVIDED that you had 60% equity in your property. As house prices have risen the amount of equity in property have risen. With interest rates being low, some families have been lucky enough to have silly interest rates (ie. 1%). Extending a mortage to cover a short fall in fees means that families have longer to pay the fees. Sometimes families have paid fees with inheritance.

If private education is important then many families will find the money somehow. A lot depends on whether you think the advantages of private education are worth it.

There are a lot of children who receive bursaries - you no longer need to be very poor to be eligible for these although all schools have different criteria.

50% of children at Oxbridge come from state schools.

But with 94% do children being state educated the numbers going to Oxbridge from state schools should be much higher than 50%.

We have paid private school fees for one child from earned income for the past five years. It was a prep schools and fees up here in the North west average £7k per year for prep schools (ours averaged £6k). Our total household income is significantly less than £40k. Now DC is in his first year at an independent senior school (a very well regarded one) and we get a significant bursary which makes things a lot easier. Full fees at the school would be £11k per year but we pay significantly less than that. We couldn't afford the full fees. The prep school years were very difficult but we managed by very carefully budgeting and not holidaying abroad or buying things we didn't really need. We chose the prep school because after moving house we couldn't get DC into a local school and logistically we would have really struggled. Seeing the education on offer at his current school has made those five years struggling really worth it.

granola well private schools are expensive to run, especially if they're housed in beautiful, but ancient buildings, and in large grounds.

Even if schools ran them as cost effectively as possible, that would still exclude the majority of traditionally middle class professionals, especially those that headed into the arts.

And the wealthy would not be drawn to budget schools. They want fantastic facilities etc.

There is a market for no frills private schools. Essentially private grammar schools. But they'd need to be housed in easy-to-keep buildings, with little land, and the facilities would need to be fairly sparse.

the annual fees for the school my boys go to are
Annual Fees Day
Nursery- £7,563
Reception, 1, 2 - £8,136
3 and 4 - £12,291
5 – 8 - £13,413
9 – 13 - £18,531
we have 2 going through the system.
We are very fortunate that investments made 10-15 years ago are paying off.

I think jilly has a point.
As a society we expect far more now in terms of luxuries and some seem to be taken as given.
two new cars every few years, foreign holidays, eating out, designer labels, latest gadgets.
I'm not saying everybody could afford school fees if they cut back on the above, but i'm convinced more would be able to.

School fees are around 15 k per year. At least. For two kids that 30k.

That's a lot of holidays and gadgets!

"But with 94% do children being state educated the numbers going to Oxbridge from state schools should be much higher than 50%."

Doesn't that assume the same distribution of bright students in a largely non-selective state system as you'd find in a largely selective private system? That's a poor assumption. You need to look at the A grade A level cohort and compare like for like. There may still be some imbalance, but nothing like what you portray. Facts first please. Debate to follow.

It's not a question of "no frills" or luxury, TWF. Compare JAGS' accounts with SPGS's, as MN 164 and I did on the active SPGS thread. JAGS recruited one new teacher in the same 5 years period that SPGS added 11. You don't need to carry on reducing class sizes. It's a choice and it's a bad one because it does exclude people and it departs from the principles on which these schools were founded.

Schools choose what costs they will incur. As I said above, these are business decisions. We can look at those and form views on them.

It's clear which way the wind is blowing on MN.

Actually at sixth form around 80% are privately educated and as MN states, many state options are not selective.

However, the 50% from state schools at Oxbridge consists of far too few students from comps. Ditto all the highly selective universities.

As a society, more women go out to paid work, now, than was the case when solicitors and accountants could afford private school fees... As a result, families not unreasonably expect more "luxuries" than they got when one parent stayed at home... They want some kind of reward for being more time poor. What has actually happened is that everything has become more expensive, so we are heading towards a society that is both time and cash poor.

TheWord

I guess it would be a lot of gadgets
But, I do tend to agree with other posters who say we expect too much these days in some cases.
The family I knew who didn't have a huge family income thought it better their ds attended private school and they managed it on one income and living frugally.
I think it was easier then as there were fewer gadgets and outgoings many presume the norm now.
So, they had one phone (landline), they never ate out, no takeaways etc.
No internet, one small car, no computers, laptops or tablets.
She cooked from scratch with basics, they had a caravan holiday/equivalent.
They bought second hand clothes and the dw patched uniform rather than buy new, often had second hand, hand me down uniform and other clothes.
We don't seem to be able to manage on few outgoings now, and the cost of living is so high and I'm sure this is what has pushed many out of the possibility of private schools.

Mos DAY school here are more than £4500 a term. We educated both of our children privately but couldn't afford to now.

Day Nursery fees here are £14 k a year full time, so not a lot of difference really, except no extras at day nursery.