Eton, Winchester etc. planning for the future

[WelshParent]

Dear All,

I am new to MN and this is my first post. So please be gentle with me if I do something wrong. I don't have one specific question but a bunch of related questions which I hope I can get some answers to.

OK, so we live in South Wales and DS is in yr3 at the moment at a local indie in Cardiff. It is a very good school but it is a full 3-18 type and produces very good A level results. DS is a bright kid and does lots of extra curricular activities including piano, tennis, swimming and ofcourse football. Teacher thinks that he is very good and is working at a level higher than expected.

Like many other parents we aspire for DS to be able to move to somewhere really good like Eton or Winchester. I have spent months and months reading about the admission procedures of each of those schools and some others like Harrow, Radley, Abingdon etc.

My first question is that if DS takes the pretest at Eton or Harrow and is offered a conditional place when time comes, I imagine they will want him to take CE. Now being in a 3-18 school he will not have been expressly prepared for CE. We do not have any good Prep school in S Wales, so that is not an option for us. Where would that leave us? Both of us spend a lot of time to guide him with his academics and would not have a problem preparing him for CE purely from a syllabus perspective but we do not have CE preparation experience. Would some private tutoring be enough over the normal school work (which is at quite a good level). What about subjects like Latin which may not be part of DS's school curriculum. Is dreaming of KS or Election a dream without being in a very good prep?

Secondly we are managing to afford school fees + other activities + uniform + childcare etc. of about 12k per annum as of now. We might be able to afford another 4-5k by really pushing ourselves. Now our total yearly take home is about 52k (gross of 79k) both working f/t. We do have some other commitments like financially supporting DH's mother, who lives abroad. So even though the 52k looks alright. We don't live too luxuriously at all, we do have a biggish house and pay a mortgage of about 1200. We don't have a huge lot of equity in it though. I know it is a speculative question but based on this are we likely to get a bursary if DS gets an offer or will our income work against us.

I will be ever so grateful for any replies.

summerends I've never named my DCs school, ever, and would prefer you stopped making reference to it, however oblique. I'd also prefer that you didn't say where I live or don't live, since I've never said that either. Thanks.

Agree Hak.

Molio of course, but whatever your DCs's school, the school I am referring to is at the top end of performance tables etc so it's a pretty safe bet on my part.
(BTW the problem on public threads that imparting even minimal information in bits and pieces over the years makes anonymity hard to maintain).

what feels right for one DC (boarding) to another (day) for us has shown us that absolute entrenched views on one side or the other are just not right.
I would even claim that only parents who have DCs in both can really judge that.

When I was younger, I used to think much the same as Hakluyt about the inevitable disadvantages of boarding. What changed my mind was my DH, who boarded from the age of 12, and is the kindest, most emotionally intelligent man imaginable, and far better at getting on with people, whether they're very like him or very unlike, than I am. Perhaps he would have been anyway. He also has a much better relationship with his family than I do with mine.

Our DS will be nearly 14 when he starts to board, according to Plan A; we'll maintain a day school Plan B in case he's not ready when it comes to it, but he says he's sure he will be, and I think he's right. To my mind boarding as a teenager is so different from boarding at age 8 that it doesn't really make sense to consider the two phenomena in the same breath.

(Not that I'm saying boarding at 8 is always wrong: it would have been wrong for my DS, but the few children at his prep who have boarded since then don't seem maladjusted as far as I or DS can see. Indeed a small boarding environment seems to provide more give and take than family life as an only child, and it's not obvious why "every day" is the magic frequency for seeing someone who loves you, when it's clear that "every hour" isn't, or none of us would send our children to school. Maybe "every week" is just fine, for certain children.)

"Not that I'm saying boarding at 8 is always wrong:" I would.

And yes of course there are sensitive and emotionally intelligent people and people who have excellent relationships with their families who went to boarding school, and vice versa.

Hakluyt,

it is disingenuous to suggest that there are no negatives to boarding at all
I agree.

The best place to raise children is a family unit.
Agreed and the experience we have had with Ds is is that a boarding school does not exclude being raised in and part of a family unit. I cannot change your mind, and nor would I wish to, but I cherish the vain hope that we might be the one family who gets through the whole dreadful boarding thing unscathed

I'm just going to make one final post on this thread peteneras stated that someone's son failed to get a place at Eton and that's why they're so negative about it. Well it wasn't my DS because we left the afternoon guided tour knowing it wasn't for us and therefore never even bothered to complete the registration form. If peteneras really thinks he can find out I'm happy to PM my DS's details and then I hope having looked into it he will then come on here and publicly state that I never registered him for Eton and thus put this issue to bed once and for all.
Secondly in the last three years I have know three boys at Eton who are struggling to make friends there, their parents who were great advocates of single rooms have separately and openly wondered if this is part of the problem. They might be wrong but that is what they are wondering. Other comments I have made have come directly from the mouths of parents with boys at Eton or more pertinently boys at both schools, I do not make up comments.
With regard to the criticisms of Win Coll food, I accept that in many cases it's not great, but frankly I don't actually care, as one of the dons said on a guided tour "madam you don't choose Winchester because of the bathrooms and loos" and the same principle can be applied to the food. If you want single rooms, wonderful food, ridiculous uniform or a "big brand name" then great I personally don't care about any of those things. As one father rather loudly said when I went on my Eton guided tour many years ago, "of course for 32k you get Medieval manuscripts, 300 acres of manicured playing fields and Olympic sized swimming pools but what I want to know is what the ethos underpinning this place". I know that the ethos underpinning Win Coll is the right one for us and my DS in particular, the school is quirky and times frustrating as odd decisions are made but I know from personal experience the pastoral care is fantastic (which by the way is sadly not what two or three current Eton parents have also told me recently), the relationships between the boys is fantastic as is the relationships between the boys and the dons. The teaching is variable as it is in all school even the great Eton. Therefore it works for us and ultimately that is what counts. I frequently state it's not for everyone. I accept other parents including current might have a different take on it but this is life. A few years ago I had experience of our local NHS hospital, the ward in particular has a grim reputation amongst locals and even staff but we met overly whelming kindness and high levels of care so experiences vary so much from person to person. To repeat this is life. So how many VC's the schools alumni have been awarded, how many prime ministers can be counted amongst it's alumni or even celebrity chefs is completely irrelevant to me. It's substance that matters to me not window dressing.

It's difficult isn't it?

Someone who was, say, home educated up to GCSE or A'Level might (perfectly legitimately from their point of view) post vigorously about the perceived cruelty of parents who force their child to spend even half a day away from them. (Thus persuading great swathes of non-posting readers of the rightness of this position.)

Someone else, perhaps an only child born into a family with, say, no money, one loving, mobility impaired resident parent, lots of books but no school friends within half an hour's drive, might knock you down in their rush to get into a boarding prep (with a generous bursary) before they're ten. And they would struggle to understand the cruelty argument as they race out of lessons to spend the evening playing cricket with their dorm mates.

I'm describing extreme situations - obviously most people are average. But the freedom of anonymity that we have here brings with it the impossibility of knowing the situation from which a person is speaking, unless they choose to disclose it. There are as many reasons for making a particular schooling decision as there are families available to make them.

Probably best never to assume that the holders of an opposing view fit any stereotype one holds in one's head.

FWIW "Oh, I could never send my child away" is usually the beginning and end of any conversation I have with parents who have no experience of boarding. But it's a really interesting subject. That's why I tend to loiter here.

summer HG's son's state school does not 'trump' all state schools academically in all measurements. Or indeed any of them.

Gently I am not referring to HG's experience. The example I cite is of a state superselective

HG is very fond of claiming that with one DS in state and one DS in private she knows all there is to know about the best of both systems - but her state son is not at the best school the state can offer, the complaints she has made about it make that clear. I understand why she is so invested in Winchester being the best school in the world, after all she has mentioned so many times how much it costs her husband to pay the fees - and I don't have a problem with that except when she claims she knows all about the best the state has to offer when she clearly doesn't. She may be able to make claims about the best 'in her area' but that's it.

gently as summer has already pointed out she is not referring to my experiences.

Maybe I'm just feeling super sensitive today but the more I read the posts on here and other thread the more convinced that as Ive just said on another thread my time on MN has come to an end.

Mind you, all that having said I'm not as implacably opposed to the idea of boarding as some. When I was at university I mixed with many former boarders, and many of my work colleagues are former boarders themselves or have kids who Board and It seems clear that boarding does suit certain personality types (both parents and kids) and it's not by any means an indication of dysfunction - just difference. There were of course some kids who were glad to get out of uncomfy situations but many of my friends had lovely families with whom they were very close - but they had enjoyed boarding. There were benefits which outweighed the costs. I work away from home a lot, so I don't see my kids all the time - it's not great but on the other hand the benefits far outweigh the costs. I'd hope that nobody would assume that because we have found a workable way to get the best possible outcomes out of our situation (which is I suppose a choice, I could do a different job) this must mean my kids aren't that fond of me. We are, in fact, a family of nutters but we would be whatever my job was so that's probably not relevant. Had my DD1 not had other, medical and SEN. issues, I might have considered a specialist music school for her which would have entailed boarding. On balance it wasn't the best thing for her with her other issues but that's not a reflection on the school or on the strength of our family bond, just the result of a practical assessment of reality.

HG - it read as though she was, I wasn't aware of another prolific parent on here with one son at wincoll and another at a state school. However since she has said she doesn't mean you, I do apologise for thinking she did. Hopefully you will have read my post about boarding not necessarily being all bad and that might mollify you a bit?

Incidentally I thought the comment about people being anti Eton because their sons hadn't got in was outrageous (especially given the poster who made it). I'm sure any boy who could get into wincoll would get into Eton although if you could get into wincoll I don't know why you'd even look at Eton given its 'baggage'.

Gently HG has been generous enough to previously share her experience but as I and she have pointed out my example was not her's.
It relates to one of the 'top' best state superselectives.

I'm really trying not to post any more on this thread as I find it exceedingly depressing TBH. But thank you for your comments about boarding, so many generalise about it's negative effects especially on younger children. For me personally these negative effects, so often stated by those usually with limited experience, just don't resonate with my own or my DC's experiences. Sometimes I wonder whether they are right and I'm just insensitive and a rubbish parent and missing something time will tell I suppose.

to GentlyB as cross posted

HG I have often beaten myself up about the amount of time I have to be away. Nice people (including people on this thread actually) tell me not to be so hard on myself, and that my kids are just fine. I hope they are right - I do understand where you are coming from though, we all want to do the best for our kids and kids are NOT all the same - some thrive in circumstances others would hate. I actually think that both my girls would probably be fine with boarding, my son most definitely would not. I wouldn't have been, either. But my sister would have been. I'm happy to continue to debate with you about the merits of the best on offer in the state system, but I completely take your word for it that you son is very much more than fine with the boarding aspect. I've seen far too many lovely people who were and are to not realise that it just really suits some people. Don't be depressed.

Woah! I'm sure Winchester's a great school for the right boy, but just as HG (whom I will be sorry to see go, btw: mostly as a lurker, I have learned a lot from her over the years) looked at Eton and didn't even register, we did the same with Winchester. Here are a few reasons (not all equally important to us, but all things I've heard used as reasons for preferring E; and omitting one or two that are too specific to my DS to mention here):

• better IT policy for the 21st century; W not even allowing boys laptops in the first year, wtf?

• a less obviously sexist head master (the use of gender stereotypes in the head's speech at wincoll took my breath away; if I'm going to commit my son to an all-boys school, I don't want that school led by someone who subscribes to such views, and especially by someone who doesn't realise the inappropriateness of displaying them in public!)

• wider choice of modern languages (my DS particularly wants to learn Japanese, for reasons that escape me, maybe Pokemon related...)

• a better environment for developing social assurance; I didn't want my child sheltering behind the "all geeks together" stereotype, and he might have done

• single rooms; despite HG's anecdotes, what I hear is that this is far from a problem, it seems generally civilised, and it's important to my DS

• better encouragement to keep fit - although DS might have liked "no compulsory sport after the first year" I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been good for him

• more opportunities in several areas, e.g., minor sports and clubs that E has and W doesn't, resulting from it being a bigger school

• similarly, while W may still be slightly more academically selective, I have the impression that there's not so much in it these days, and it's also nearly twice as big; it seems unlikely that in the top set of any given subject, E will be less stimulating

• better attitude to communication with parents and, apparently, much greater flexibility at E than W in the face of individual needs; one example is travelling before the official end of a teaching block, but from what I hear, this stretches into more important matters too

• and it's hard to compare the food before we get to specific houses, but I definitely don't like the idea that one shouldn't care about it!

I doubt the "baggage" will be a problem unless DS wants to be Prime Minister one day, which somehow I don't see...

there are other schools nearby. Shrewsbury enjoys a good reputation as does Marlborough. I met someone recently who did her 6th form at Gordonstoun and she enthused they were the best 2 years of her school life. Don't set your heart on those schools you mentioned, good as they are because they may not suit your child.

Excellent post Molio! You got the better of me there, I must admit (and I'm not being sarcastic).

Eton it's all about what works for the individual family, what might be then"best" school for one isn't the "best" school for another. I don't see your comments as a slur on Win Coll at all or take it personally. Some people sadly struggle to see that we are all entitled to our own opinions and also that we all want different things and have different expectation from life including education.
We need to feel comfortable at a school and also hope that the majority of our DC's needs are being met. This can or indeed doesn't happen in a whole range of schools in both sectors. I personally don't like another school mentioned on here, which I know very well indeed, but it's over subscribed and many like it. As long as they're happy that great.
My friends just bought a new car I wouldn't have one if you paid me she loves it and thinks mine (which a I love) is ridiculous. So we're both happy.

Of course. I was responding to GentlyBenevolent's "if you could get into wincoll I don't know why you'd even look at Eton given its 'baggage'."

"there are other schools nearby"

Really?

On the record, the food in my DS's house is excellent. We are a 'foodie' family so he has high standards .

Eton please don't make it an E agains W again. Obviously there are reasons that parents choose one or the other or not at all.

Re your list, I certainly would n't disagree with points 3, 6 (although depends on housemaster) and 7.
Not experienced 2 so can't comment.
We see definite advantages in 1.
I'm not sure why you think 4. Actually we think the inverse is true because they understand the need for and encourage social confidence in the 'geeks' just like E and other schools.