State schools and an easy life or independent?

[TremoloGreen]

We’re doing a bit of financial planning at the moment – our 5/10 year plan – and the issue of schooling has come up. We’ve been leaning towards state education for the following reasons.

A private education is very, very expensive these days and I’m not sure what you get over a good state school is worth the money. A not very scientific survey of people we know (I’d say roughly half are state-educated) suggests to me that the key to being happy and successful in life is a stable, loving family and a can-do attitude/’drive’. These things seem to have more bearing than whether one is state or independently educated.

We could, at a push, afford independent, with a bit of help from our parents. However, it would mean watching the pennies and no fancy holidays. It would also mean that we would both have to work very hard, full-time. At the moment, I only work part-time and DH works full-time but with a good work-life balance. Also, we’d be more dependent on inheritance to fund a comfortable lifestyle in retirement, and I guess there are no cast-iron guarantees with that. In the likelihood that we do get the inheritances we’re expecting, we’d have more cash to help our children with buying homes etc.

We’re in the process of moving house and the area we are moving to has a choice of very highly regarded single sex state schools (non-selective though) or a good, mixed independent school. All the primaries we would have a chance of getting into are ‘outstanding’. There are plenty of extra-curricular activities on offer in the local area. We’re deliberately not buying a particularly flashy house, so we have the choice of what to do with our money. Tying it up in one property/ having a massive mortgage scares me!

The reason we’re wavering is that state education is an unknown to both of us. No-one in either of our families has been to a state school so we don’t know the reality of it. The class sizes concern me, I don’t understand how each child can get enough input – will I really have enough time to do all the extra needed at home? People seem surprised that we would consider state if we can afford independent – do they know something we don’t?

I think most people will tell you that it depends on your child and certainly, not every child will derive any benefit at all from private eductation.

I do privately educate mine. The reasons for this is my daughter is very quiet and suffers quite badly fron anxiety. Her attention can also wander a lot (more than the norm). She therefore does better in a small class in a single sex environment where she is not drowned out by the boys and the teacher can keep an eye on her. It has made a massive difference to her self-confidence.

My son is pretty clever but odd. Square peg in round hole type thing. On advice from an ed pysch we sent him to the most selective school we could access on the basis that he would fit in better and be happier. It has largely worked (but not so marked as with dd). Ds's level of academic success would (I think) be similar in a good state school but he might not be as happy as he is. He was mercilessly bullied in his state primary.

I work long hours to be able to afford this and there is no doubt that family life is not always as happy as it would be if I worked shorted hours. However, my dcs are now at the age where more of their life is school than home and I think, overall, their happiness is greater than it would be if I was at home more. I also think that, for dd at least, her eventual life outcome will probably be better. Not so sure for ds.

It doesn't sound like you can really afford or OP! So decision made!

I send my DC private because I believe it offers a real advantage but we can afford it easily.

I wouldn't torture yourself over it. Nor would I play the 'it's not worth it' game that those who can't afford it sometimes roll with.

It's never black and white
You just need to find the best school for each child that you can access

(whether that be single sex, selective grammar, mixed, faith, independent competitive, independent small and nurturing etc...)

There isn't a simple answer because there are so many variables.
Also there isn't one answer because you can always change your mind - swap from State to Private (or v.v.) at different Key Stages.
And there is always the third way of State + tutoring (although Private + tutoring is not unknown!)

Don't forget that you can choose to pay / not-pay at school level but you can't at University level. That costs ££££££. Do you want to save the money for that instead?

It isn't cut and dried certainly - but the first thing that struck me from your OP is that you are already very "fortunate" in life. Lots of opportunities, lots of choices, positive hopes and plans for the future. You already have everything most people would want.

So why make yourselves less fortunate? I'm not talking purely about money - zillions of people happily stretch themselves to afford fees. But do you really need the worry? At this point there's no indication that your particular children would face a disadvantaged future if they don't go to an independent school. Thoughtful, supportive parents, the elusive work life balance, holidays, a nice home in a nice area, money for university or first homes. No doubt you have the friends and connections you want?

I can't see what you would be buying at this stage except worry. My very easily given advice, not knowing more about your situation, would be to keep building on your financial security and wait and see how the DCs develop. (Unless you are in London madness) I cannot see the point of selective education before about 7 or 8 anyway - and your excellent state schools must be able to provide a decent non-selective beginning.

Wait. Your DC will soon show you what they need.

It's really difficult isn't it? I agree with goosey we pay for DS2 we work very hard to pay for and I have never doubted that we're doing the right thing, his school is everything we personally are looking for in independent education, paying has prevented us from having fancy holidays but we still take cheapish holidays and have always had an fantastic time. I didn't pay for DS1 after prep, he's bright but has moderate dyslexia so significantly underachieves, the sort of school he would have got a place at would IMO not have been any better than our state options.
If your not working so hard to pay schools fees then you'll have time to do other things with your DC's extra curricular activities, get a tutor in if necessary etc. I'm not sure about this class size thing, maybe for some subjects a small class in great e.g. an MFL or art or if your DC is actually really struggling at math for example a small class would be beneficial but I'm not sure how essential it is for other subjects.
You're also right about the key to being happy is not just about your education, being privately educated doesn't mean your going to happier in you're relationships, avoid health problems or have a "can attitude" nor does it guarantee a successful career.

Yes, this is taking into account university fees. Going state but having the option of switching to independent is probably a good idea. We're really planning how to invest our money otherwise, so it would affect how long we choose to lock it away for etc.

WordFactory - not sure how to respond to your comment, but suffice to say, if we couldn't afford it, I wouldn't be wasting my time. At any independent school, there are a range of families, from those for whom the fees are a drop in the ocean to those who are making significant sacrifices. At my school, there were girls whose family were royalty in their home countries, daughters of oil/shipping tycoons and also daughters of teachers and academics, who were not well off. There's always a small minority that this sort of thing matters to (depends on background, upbringing), but most people don't care. We were somewhere in the middle, and while I was a little jealous of my friend's stories of month-long safaris in Kenya and skiing in the Alps, I was very happy and feel very fortunate to have had my trips to France and the Lake District! I also think I was very lucky to go to my school, but we definitely can't afford that one, and I'm in no way ashamed to admit it!

I spoke to a friend who went state all the way until sixth form, and she said she would much rather have a deposit for a house than a private education - and that's knowing the difference. That's the kind of thing that makes me think we could spend our money more wisely.

What are your children like?

In fact, do you actually have any yet?

ahem ....Word, you come over a tiny bit smug, not sure you are aware of that?

It is a very valid question OP, and it depends on the circumstances. The child. The schools. The year group/class.

You can be unlucky with a certain cohort in a school.

My advice would be to keep your options open, and try a nice state school unless/until you have experience of it not working.

Do lots of research and talk to people in the area. Visit schools, with your DC so you can "imagine them there".

We have one and one on the way, so probably to young to make any meaningful suggestions about what type of school would suit them! If we have a third, we'll likely have a large gap (I'm only 30 now) and won't do it unless we can comfortably afford. This is really about long term financial planning.

Planning is good! But yes, probably a bit early to know whether your bump has any particular educational preferences.

We had a plan that DS would go to the local outstanding primary and then the local good comprehensive. Two outstanding primaries later he is now at an independent school. He was bullied at the first primary. The second was excellent in almost all ways and he was happy there. However, it became clear the independent would be a better fit than the comprehensive so we jumped ship early. I would say don't tie your money up too tightly.

I didn't mean to sound smug. Apologies.

I just meant that if I couldn't afford it I wouldn't tie myself in knots over it. There wouldn't seem much point.

But I also wouldn't do that middle class thing of trying to find evidence that things I can't afford have no value to prove something to myself.

In life none of us can have everything we want. We just make the best of what we do have, no?

"I spoke to a friend who went state all the way until sixth form - and she would much rather have the deposit for a house than a private education - and that's knowing the difference."
Education be it state or independent is just never this black and white IMO, it all so much depends on the school, in both sectors there can be significant variation, for example subjects offered, a friends of DS2's was telling me the other day that he is currently doing a Pre U rarely offered in the state sector, he started it to make up his choices and now loves it more than any other subject and is thinking of doing it at university. DS2 last year looked very seriously at our very well regarded local sixth form college and realised that the grass is not necessarily greener elsewhere in fact I think he felt it was actually a shade browner, for a while he also felt he would have been better being in the 6th form at another more local excellent independent school but he recently went there for a sports thing was chatting to some of the boys and then began to realise it's not quite what he thought, other factors play a part the personality of your individual DC's, where you live. It's so easy to assume that outcomes would be the same but we will never really know.

Also OP says they can only afford it if they both work full time, do without any luxuries and accept help from parents.

Is that really affording it?

Maybe it is. I dunno.

I think if accepting help from parents i.e. all the time not just a one off for an unexpected bill or trip then I personally don't think it is affordable. Anything can happen and your parents they may find they need that money for something else what would you do then?

That's my take happy.

A lump sum up front or a trust, fine. A contribution paid from income? Savings? Probably not something I would rely on as a twenty year solution.

OK, luxuries are relative. I mean I would mostly take holidays in Europe, cut back on ski trips and weekends away, not buy expensive handbags... not eat gruel and burn the furniture.

Contribution from parents would probably be a trust or lump sum into a school fees saving plan, depending on advice from our accountant.

Let's not get hung up on the finer points of whether we can afford it or not. What I meant is in the title - it is worth giving up our current easy lifestyle where we don't have to work that much or that hard but have more time for our children. With a bit of a side issue of would the money we would spend be better invested elsewhere, e.g. in helping them buy houses? Also quite interested to hear from people who have experience of both sectors as we have none with state.

Thanks.

I honestly think it's a no brainer that you try the local state schools. Worst case scenario, you move them at 8 but you've saved thousands. Best-case, they thrive and you take another view at 11.

When we actually went and looked at schools for our first born it was absolutely crystal clear that the state school was the best. Once I'd told myself that we could always change if necessary, I just relaxed and enjoyed this wonderful free education on our doorstep.

In the end we've decided to go private for eldest when he moves to y7 next year. The selective school exams were absolutely hideous, I'm not going to lie, but I don't think they were any more hideous for us than for those at private schools. He did very well, just as well as friends in private primaries, and he is absolutely not a genius. There are plenty cleverer kids in his class.

Word and Happy offer some valuable advice, but I'd also bear in mind that their children go to the toppety-top schools - there's more in common between a good state and a 'normal' private than between most privates and those elite schools.

Surely it depends on what you want from life, I don't "eat gruel or burn the furniture" but our holidays are in Europe, I don't ski I personally can't think of anything less I would want to do, but I would like to round up cattle in Montana but paying school fees prevents me from doing this, but my DS2 is coming to the end of his school career there is now light at the end of the tunnel, I'm still young fit and healthy and the cattle are still there to be rounded up, whilst they've been waiting he has received a fantastic education, which I know he could not have received in the state sector, so for me it worth every penny. (as she sits flicking her way through web sites about cowboy hats/boots and flights to Billings).

Right. So you can afford it quite easily.

The thing is whether private education is valuable is entirely subjective. It depends what you want for your DC's education, what is available to you locally and how many sacrifices in terms of money, time etc you will have to make.

Everyone else's experiences, although interesting, won't necessarily be relevant to you IYSWIM.

For what it's worth, here are my experiences.

DH and I were educated in state. Both terrible schools, though mine was definitely worse . We both achieved highly (went to Oxbridge etc) but both had a torrid time (me especially) .

However, this is a loooooong time ago.

More recent experience of state is the fact that I visit a lot of schools as part of the widening access scheme (I now work at Oxbridge). Some are very good, some are ok, some are poor. This does not necessarily correlate to their OFSTED label. Far from it. Don't be sucked in by 'outstanding'.

My view is that state provision needs to work on its support for high ability children. You however, may have access to schools which do this very well. This is a relatively easy exercise to work out.

OK that's what I'm thinking too - lots to think about here! Yes, we are talking 'normal' private as we want a day school (mixed experiences of boarding, but that's a whole other thread!) and that's what is on offer in the area. When choosing an area, we've also had to think about commuting and proximity to family.

I went to very good local state schools until I was 13, and then went to boarding school followed by a local private girls school.

I can still remember the culture shock of how much better the private schools were when I first went. Little things like how few pupils, all the staff knew who I was even though I was new, standing when a teacher entered the room and the fact that people just got on and worked, made an impact.

I know this is all totally subjective, but you asked for people who had experience of both so I thought I would pipe up!

I have recently enrolled DS into a local private school because it really is the best place for him. I looked at so many local state primaries first (I was weighing up the cost of moving against school fees) but they just didn't compare to what the private school could offer him in terms of class size, facilites and enid blyton type childhood experiences (I don't know how best to phrase that, sorry!)

I am going to be broke, our holidays will be butlins etc, and I will have to work hard - but I really felt like my lifestyle was worth compromising on in order to try and secure DS the best options for him that I could.

I realise I sound a bit evangelical, I don't mean to, I am just trying to explain my choices and reasoning!

farewell your discription of DS school as 'toppety-top' made me laugh; much needed today!!!

TBF though, DD's school is not a big name public school jobbie and I certainly feel it's provided great value to DD, just in different ways. If I had a DD who was low ability I would sell my kidney for a place!!! the results are amazing considering it's not selective.

I think your suggestion of trying state school for the early years, is a good one. Although I loved DC's prep (and it was super convenient), the real benefit kicked in at year 3, for sure.

happy we have been on a holiday like that to Montana. The kids loved it. I'm glad I did it, but put it alongside our Winnebago trip across the West Coast...rather uncomfortable for such a lot of cash...