State schools and an easy life or independent?

[TremoloGreen]

We’re doing a bit of financial planning at the moment – our 5/10 year plan – and the issue of schooling has come up. We’ve been leaning towards state education for the following reasons.

A private education is very, very expensive these days and I’m not sure what you get over a good state school is worth the money. A not very scientific survey of people we know (I’d say roughly half are state-educated) suggests to me that the key to being happy and successful in life is a stable, loving family and a can-do attitude/’drive’. These things seem to have more bearing than whether one is state or independently educated.

We could, at a push, afford independent, with a bit of help from our parents. However, it would mean watching the pennies and no fancy holidays. It would also mean that we would both have to work very hard, full-time. At the moment, I only work part-time and DH works full-time but with a good work-life balance. Also, we’d be more dependent on inheritance to fund a comfortable lifestyle in retirement, and I guess there are no cast-iron guarantees with that. In the likelihood that we do get the inheritances we’re expecting, we’d have more cash to help our children with buying homes etc.

We’re in the process of moving house and the area we are moving to has a choice of very highly regarded single sex state schools (non-selective though) or a good, mixed independent school. All the primaries we would have a chance of getting into are ‘outstanding’. There are plenty of extra-curricular activities on offer in the local area. We’re deliberately not buying a particularly flashy house, so we have the choice of what to do with our money. Tying it up in one property/ having a massive mortgage scares me!

The reason we’re wavering is that state education is an unknown to both of us. No-one in either of our families has been to a state school so we don’t know the reality of it. The class sizes concern me, I don’t understand how each child can get enough input – will I really have enough time to do all the extra needed at home? People seem surprised that we would consider state if we can afford independent – do they know something we don’t?

Meant to say I wouldn't be seen dead looking at a gothic window.

We kept our options open this way:
While DD was small we lived very frugally and put ALL our money into paying off the mortgage.
DD was far to young to notice or care, that she had no holiday and that we never ate out.
We paid off the mortgage when she was 5 (7 years early).
This allowed us, when she was 7 move her to private school, when it became clear her OFSTED outstanding infants school wasn't able to cope with her.
Small class sizes - many teachers per pupil - makes a big difference.

I'm the topsy turvy of most on these threads.

My parents (and grandparents) boarded.
I went to selective day private.
My kids are at non selective state.

And the answer to OPs question is it depends

• it depends on your child (each one individually)
• it depends on your career stability (location and financially)
• it depends on your state school options (relaxed comp entry or utter stress Kent 11+)
• it depends on your private school options (access to tiptop or pretty darned mediocre)

But more than anything else, unless you are as loaded as wordfactory and her DH you will have to make compromises to pay for private.

About 4 years ago we seriously looked at moving DCs across to the fee paying school,
but I decided that I was rather keen on my holidays and wine and gym and their riding and tennis and music

and did not fancy going back to working full time
so they stayed put and we did our best to give them cultural capital ducks and runs after raising that one again

Ok well to answer your question my Dds are at state for primary and independent secondary
Dd1 just got academic scholarships for tough schools.
If the state primary weren't doing a good job (she is in a bright class and has had a lucky run of teachers in a big school) I would have moved her early.
My Dds do a lot of extra curricular activities which are expensive and a big demand on me driving them everywhere. Prep schools often do all this on site with longer days which is great if you are working ft. Not such a big deal if not.

And as for needing private school to have interests in culture etc are you serious?
Nearly everyone in Dds classes have been to an exhibition, gallery or something this half term. I'm parked outside school it is range rovers and Volvo galore! The difference in private to state is nowhere as big as you can imagine, area dependent I guess.

OP you asked me how to check if a school is supporting its most able pupils.

Obviously, this isn't cast in stone, but it's things I would check.

What is the proportion of high ability pupils. IMVHO you need a like ability cohort.

Does the school set. IMVHO high ability pupils benefit from rigorous setting.

How many GCSEs are pupils encouraged to sit. In some schools those with high ability are encouraged to sit 12/13 etc. This boosts the school's league table position, but does nothing for the high ability pupils.

What subjects are pupils sitting. Some schools offer ludicrous option blocks with nary an academic subject in it.

Look at the GCSE results. Is the percentage of As looking good against national averages. Don't be fooled by A/A conflation!

Do the same for A levels.

Look at leavers' destinations. Where are the high ability pupils going? Oxbridge? Imperial? LSE? Durham? etc etc. Are students going on to read the most competitive subjects.

area dependent I guess.
VERY
My local school - posh car coefficient = zilch
The school I sent my kids to, posh car coefficient = 20%
rising to 60% at orchestra pick up time

Bear in mind that "does well at challenging most high achievers" and "will do well at challenging a real outlier" are very different things, and it isn't always the same schools that will do the two things. For a "normal" high achiever, the child who will be the top achiever in the class, maybe the year, but won't be the top one the teacher has ever taught, I agree with what WordFactory says (though I do think a serious commitment to differentiation within mixed-ability classes might be as good as setting - it's mixed-ability and teaching to the middle that you're trying to avoid). For a real outlier, complacency within a high-achieving school can be as much of a problem as an absence of high achievers. In some ways, for them, how the school handles children with disabilities, learning and otherwise, is a better guide. My best tip would be that when they tell you "we treat every child as an individual", say "Can you give me some examples?". You're listening for examples where they really did treat the child as a one-off - doesn't actually matter much whether it was for high or low ability, or a problem or situation they'd never seen before. Could they throw away the rule book when that was the right thing to do?

I'm in the same position as you, OP. I'd really like to start DS in the state sector and move if necessary into the private sector. But I've seen friends who've tried this struggling to find places at the decent private schools at age 7, so really you need to start there at age 5 or it's a gamble whether or not you'll get in. But is it worth paying from age 5 just in case you wouldn't have got in at age 7? Not sure...

In fact, "can you give me some examples?" is probably the best question to ask on school visits, across the board - very good at exposing whether they just think it sounds good, or really do it.

OK - if I look at the state school we would definitely get a place at (rather than another we might):

The most able students do 10 GCSEs. These include English Language, English Lit, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Mathematics and Philosophy & Ethics, plus any four of: French, Spanish, Latin, Art, Music, Dance, Drama, Phys Ed, Geography, History, Ancient History, a technology subject, Sociology or Business Studies. They must include a MFL and a humanties subject (not including sociology). They may not study dance and drama together and they may not study more than one technology subject. All do games.

There is some sort of higher certificate in further maths for the top set.

In the 6th form they do IB.

Between 78-86% achieved 5x A*-C in the last 4 years. 62% achieved the English Baccalaureate (don't know what that is?). 83% achieved C or higher in English and Maths. 56% are considered "high attainers" according to the government league tables but I don't understand what that is based on.

Several of the local independents don't have the same data available, but for those that do, the exam results are very similar, only one is higher (85-100%) but that's a Catholic college that we probably wouldn't get in to. They don't publish their information on percentage of high attainers.

I meant to start that with, 'that's very helpful word factory'!

Those subject options are very similar to my old school although we had more languages, including Classical Greek, Italian, German and Russian. They probably do Mandarin too these days.

We also had lots of opportunities for things like ballet exams, ABSRM, RADA?, cookery and wine certificates, equestrian management etc, but all of those could be done outside school.

I have no idea of the 'posh car coefficient', but I don't drive a posh car myself, so I don't tend to notice

iwcg indeed my comments were about high ability students generally.

For those at the end of the ability curve it's more difficult. My (unpopular) view is that those pupils are best served by academic selection which was one of the main drivers for my choice of school for DS.

OP the percentage gaining 5 GCSEs is a good way to judge how the school deals with its majority.

But it doesn't really help for its high achievers.

I wasn't aware that there were schools that don't use streaming. That to me is crazy.

I'm with word on this IMO those high achievers on the end of the ability curve always will do better in academic selection preferably super selection. But I'm assuming OP you don't know if your DC is in this group and you obviously do to know about any future DC's. The question is when should this academic selection start? My DS2 (whose always appeared to be very bright) didn't start school until yr 1 he also rarely attended nursery I was more interested in social skills, having fun, learning fun things etc, he moved to prep in yr 2 and they were streamed for math and English from day 1 and 1MFL and Latin were taught four times week by appropriately qualified teachers from day 1, ditto science, history geography etc. from yr 4 they were streamed for all subjects, this suited him.
But do you need this from reception? I don't think you do.
If your thinking about paying for secondary you need to look at entry requirements and the age they start, how easy is it to get from a state primary and if they start at 13+ (unlikely I suspect) what will you do in between leaving primary and starting?
I don't thinks we can ever plan for education too obsessively over 11 years ago when my DS started at his quaint primary school I never thought he'd end up where he is now, and I certainly never envisaged him boarding from yr 2. Perhaps you just need to make plans that enable you to have options and wait and see what life brings you.

I think as long as the schood is "good enough" in the long run it doesn't make much difference. If you're going to struggle to afford it, but still want to, then do it just for sixth form.

I have a very high achiever in a regular state school ... at 13 she is much more of a self-starter than any of the privately educated children I know. She may not have such a high academic standard (if you measure it against a curriculum), but she knows how to learn and she is capable of doing it without a teacher looking over her shoulder.

tremolo
That school looks fine.

Those who consider their kids to be outliers needing segregated education tend to have the means to pay for such segregation.
The rest of us just have to put up with what our areas offer.

What really matters is parental support and motivation - almost more than anything else.

Tremolo, plenty of schools don't use streaming: they use setting. Which is what WF referred to. And what my daughters' excellent comprehensive provides.

YY sorry : streaming is dire, setting is great

But really, do wait till your hypothetical children are school age to make a decision. I'm not a big one for the cliché that it's 'the right school for the right child' - me, I want a school that delivers a broad, liberal education with a rigorous approach to science, a spread of language options and some good cultural options, for both my kids and frankly for most of the kids I know; but even in my case, I would have imagined that I needed decent music facilities for both of them, based on my own experience...and lo and behold, I got one child who has inherited her father's Ears of Cloth.

mistri how many privately schooled DC do you know? And how are you forensically measuring their ability to self start as against your own DD's?

I know people like to buy into the idea that all privately educated DC are spoon fed and not able to cope higher up the academic chain, but it's not actually true .